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Old 08-31-2016, 08:04 PM   #1 (permalink)
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The Inevitable Question of ROF

MCBers, prepare to go nuts! At least, a thread solely dedicated to the BPS issue. Now hey, hear me out and read the whole thing before commenting. I had video to go along with it but unfortunately, it's too big to put onto Vimeo.

So there's almost always some sort of conversation on here about the evils of rate of fire and how it's destroyed the game of paintball. Time and time again there is evidence of experienced players beating up on rentals or little kids, or people using enhanced firing modes to do their dirty deeds. My major beef with these conversations is it places absolutely no culpability on the individuals who are actually doing said things.

Like it or not, higher rates of fire are part of paintball. Autotrigger, the Tippmann SMG, the Mod 10, Mags and Cockers, the first blowbacks, the first electropneumatic guns...yes, there's absolutely been an arms race, both for accuracy and for rate of fire. But does picking up one of these guns just automatically corrupt people into giant jerks?

The answer is no.

The people who knowingly beat up on rentals and little kids (knowingly is the key word: big games have ambiguous situations in them) are people who suck at paintball and have a bully complex. They have just enough "ability" to be able to bash on newbies but they have no chance at competing with their peers, and they certainly don't play tournaments. Their only chance at being "successful" is shooting rentals. I see this a LOT at little fields, compared to bigger ones. Why? There's a smaller player pool so it's easier to be the big fish in the small pond. This sort of mentality would be present even if everyone had stock class guns and, aside from bonus balling, the result would be the same: the experience for new players would be soured or ruined.

Another thing I noticed is that, speaking truthfully, a lot of paintball players are not the brightest bunch. There seems to be a sociological tendency for some of these people to have some sort of positional assignment to them, and beating up on rentals, acting in a scripted, dramatic fashion, etc will bolster this. The people that make up nicknames for themselves or try a lot to portray an aspect of paintball (eg, the tough guy, the accuracy by volume guy, the "sniper", etc) seem to be a big part of this puzzle. It's not inherently dangerous (just silly) but I've noticed that these people frequently contribute to the problems in an effort to solidify their own constructed image. It feels like watching a reality TV show where people make up their own scripts and there are no cameras.

So why don't we hold PEOPLE and FIELDS accountable for consistently poor behavior? Isn't it the SAME people we see scaring new players off or acting in a foolish manner? Why is there such an obsession on blaming equipment?

I play a pretty fair amount of recball with my EGO. I shoot less than some pump guys do. The convenience is having follow up shots, and I rarely "rip on" the gun in recreational play. More often than not, I just one-finger the gun. I can comfortably shoot the gun 15+ BPS in semi (Virtue CLOCK verified, high debounce and no balogna settings) but I have control over the gun. It doesn't shoot itself.

On the flip side, look at this guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDywOqB1HHo

I hope none of you are this guy because he's a jerk. He clearly sees he's playing against mostly rentals and, according to his YouTube channel, he's a referee at this field. Amazing. He definitely did not need to unload on little kids that are standing in the open when he's in the snake. You definitely wouldn't have someone that is clearly not good at paintball do the same thing with MCB style stuff, right?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzvbV3np5dU

So if this is one of you guys, I am calling you out. You are probably the worst auto trigger-er I've ever seen, you have no idea what you're doing, and you just shot the crap out of a bunch of kids. Great job. "Hit em hard, hit em fast", wow, you're seriously proud of this video?

I've noticed this shift off of helping new players to seeing them as fresh meat. It's something that has happened within the player community. People that decide to grab a rental to play against rentals aren't doing them any good if they're being jerks about it. Rentals are new at paintball, they aren't idiots. If anything, that's a really demeaning thing to do to someone.

Accountability needs to return to the player community. You need to OSTRACIZE this behavior. Make people feel like idiots for newbie bashing. They're looking for some sort of positive reinforcement. Do the opposite. Make your refs punish these guys and tell your field owners about it. Personally, I find these guys and hunt them down in games. It doesn't take too long to get the point across. If you have younger kids doing the shenanigans, take them under your wing and teach them the right way to do it. If they're acting like punks, their parents signed the waiver: let them play with the big boys and I guarantee, it'll only take one or two times of them getting blasted to cut it out. But really, I see the whole "OMG GUNS THAT SHOOT MORE THAN 5 BPS ARE SCARY, MUST BAN" thing is insanely immature and detrimental to the paintball community. It's ruining the concept of personal responsibility and it's trying to fight an impossibility.
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Old 08-31-2016, 08:08 PM   #2 (permalink)
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I'm James_Blond and I support this post. Well said sir. Personal accountability, enforcement, teaching the new guy not trying to ruin his life, all very important.

as a side note, I feel similarly when people argue against batteries in hoppers etc. Personally i hate missing shots because a grav feed jammed, I like my revy types and the occasional forcefed.
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Old 08-31-2016, 08:50 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Ok, I'll bite. This thread, like the other threads debating limiting ROF, banning anything with batteries from rec play, and pushing accountability onto the player and the field, is not going to change anything unless the people you play with and the field you play at have accepted Velcor into their hearts and feel the same way. Now hear me out...

This thread is being posted on MCB and is being read primarily by MCB members who, from personal experience, exhibit good sportsmanship, control, and leadership on the field. Those bonus balling bullies are few and far between in our little corner of the internet. I mention this only because while the views of each individual may vary they are all trying to convey a similar message; "I don't have a problem controlling my own equipment, it's that other guy that lit me up that is the problem!". You have even included your own testimony that does just that:
Quote:
Originally Posted by NSGSplatmaster View Post
I play a pretty fair amount of recball with my EGO...I can comfortably shoot the gun 15+ BPS in semi (Virtue CLOCK verified, high debounce and no balogna settings) but I have control over the gun. It doesn't shoot itself.
Your point of:
Quote:
Originally Posted by NSGSplatmaster
So why don't we hold PEOPLE and FIELDS accountable for consistently poor behavior?
is very valid and it is what most of us expect. I have personally singled out an individual in the staging area after a game because I witnessed them doing exactly what you have described. I have even gone as far as to tell the individual to find the renter that they abused and apologize to them and offer to join that renter's team and help them learn better tactics in the next game. Did it happen? No! That bully didn't feel they had done anything wrong and let me know as much using some very colorful language.

Now I do have a point, and here it is: "Individuals are the uncontrollable variable; players and field staff alike". At the field the most effective way to hold an individual accountable is to have the field discipline that person by having them sit out a game or two, banning them for the day, or permanently banning them. This discipline can be difficult to enforce though. The ref may not have witnessed the event because they were watching another part of the field/checking a player for a hit/talking to an eliminated player about their gear/etc. (I think we all experience the under-staffing of referees in paintball). Or the ref may just not care because they are only "working" there for a little bit of cash and free/discounted paint and entry when they aren't on the clock.

While it is possible to ask all players to limit their ROF the only way to make absolute certain that they do is to place restrictions on the type of equipment they carry onto the field. I have played at many fields that segregate walk-on games by beginners, intermediate, and advanced players in an effort to solve this exact problem. The issue though is that for the most part it is up to the player to choose which group they play with and an individual's skill is not taken into account. I used to play with the advanced group on occasion using my old micro dropout Phantom and after one game where I had 3 or 4 eliminations (~10 man teams) one ref asked me to "take it easy" in the next game.

So, while I am in total agreement that increased accountability needs to be placed on the individual player by the field they are playing at (ultimately placing the responsibility on the field and its employees) I feel that limiting equipment capability for each experience level is a more effective solution. Using my Phantom experience as an example of experience (and some lucky shots) trumping ROF; limiting equipment will not eliminate a bully from acting inappropriately and ruining a renter's good time. However, it will reduce their opportunity to do so and potentially make it easier for the field's employees to do their job in holding such people accountable and reprimanding them accordingly; assuming the employee actually does their job.

At the end of the day a bully is going to bonus ball a new player or ignore the surrender rule regardless of what marker he/she is using... but it is a hell of a lot more difficult to accomplish with a gravity fed 98 Custom or a stock class marker than it is with a Luxe 3.14, DM16billion, or EgoMyLastPaycheck set to semi at the chrono station and super-dee-duper bounce ramping on the field.
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Old 08-31-2016, 09:04 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I just don't get how paintball is the only activity where people act like they can't choose who they play with. I'm not about to be a walkin on some random thug basketball game here in Chicago were I might get my *** kicked over a foul. I'm going to play with friends (if I played basketball).

Even on the one single field indoor place by me they let groups of friends rotate out so you don't have to play with randos. We even played a bunch of 3x3 games and a few 1x1's, and while field positioning always sucked for the odd man starting from the side, or if 1x1 isn't ideal its still more fun playing with cool people then *******s.

Some games the rentals wanted to play with us, some games they played separate games then us.

Just like renters don't always want to play with vets, ever think vets don't always want to play with renter? Why should anyone have to change their style of play or go soft? Why can't we just play our own game?



Same thread we always post and same response I always give.

My 2 favorite activities are guns and paintball. They attract a lot of douchebags which I choose not to associate with, socialize with, participate with, and usually find myself apologizing for when talking to people about my hobbies that aren't into guns or paintball.

Last edited by theangrydragon; 08-31-2016 at 09:45 PM.
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Old 08-31-2016, 09:13 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theangrydragon View Post
Same thread we always post and same response I always give.

My 2 favorite activities are guns and paintball. They attract a lot of douchebags which I choose not to associate with, socialize with, participate in, and usually find myself apologizing for when talking to people about my hobbies that aren't into guns or paintball.
I agree completely. These threads are beginning to approach the status of religion and politics on MCB
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Old 08-31-2016, 09:25 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I also think most paintball players hide behind their masks like they hide behind their keyboard. The jokers running around acting like jagbags hide behind their masks and congregate between games with their little crew. The keyboard warriors stand behind idly and don't say anything to these people and create a post on the internet (not calling anyone out specifically as the tone here usually comes off non confrontationally til we get deeper into the thread).

I've been lucky that I haven't had to ask someone not to participate in my games because I play with friends or people on here, but I would not hesitate to do so.

Something as simple as "my group is going to sit this one out while you play with your crew, then we're going to play by ourselves next game".

Why do people play confrontationally, create confrontational posts calling out a genre of paintball players, but are terrified of actually confronting someone about their playing and tactfully booting them from their group?

Clearly this is not a Canadian problem...

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Old 08-31-2016, 09:27 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Refs dont care and usually have their faces buried in phones and only call game start and end, when I play with new players I often dont even shoot alot that game but give out positions and help the newer kids play better and let them get the kills, I get far more enjoyment from a noob blasting an "advanced" player and them going all nuts cause they got the machine gun guy out then going out and just noob bashing all day, have I done it why yes but quickly learned that its no fun, we have to loose at some point or were never going to get better as a player, its all in the players attitude and most player just want to shoot alot of paint and dont care how hard they are on new players or how bad they shoot them up, they may like paintball but have no clue they are killing our sport when that player leaves early because their tired of being shot up and not getting anybody out
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Old 08-31-2016, 09:51 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Surf2Live View Post
I agree completely. These threads are beginning to approach the status of religion and politics on MCB
It is politics. It's the gun control argument proxied through paintball.

One side claims its not the gun that ruins it for everyone (blames the bad people) and the other side claims its the gun that ruins paintball (blames the guns and says even good people are going to behave badly with that kind of firepower).

/thread closed

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Old 08-31-2016, 09:58 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Every time I step on to the field I hope someone -ANYONE- will be able to stop my parade of brutality before my vision goes completely red and I end up on the news.

It's a risky gamble but luckily for everyone within a 5 mile radius it's worked so far.
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Old 08-31-2016, 10:14 PM   #10 (permalink)
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theangrydragon - That situation is only tangible if there are enough players to support it. The sad reality that I've noted in my other thread is that there are a lot, a LOOOOT of fields that have experienced a significant drawdown in terms of regulars. Rental players are still prevalent but a lot of the casual weekend warriors are no longer present at the fields. Most of the tournament guys only play rotations/practices for events. This doesn't leave much in terms of player variety, and it may not be feasible to cut the pool any farther down. I was at a field that has multiple playing fields on it recently on a beautiful day and there were only 7 people TOTAL. Of them, three were little kids, one was a guy with a Spyder, one was an adult female renting, one was a buddy of mine that had never played, and myself. We ended up playing 2 on 5 and I pretty much did nothing all game except for shoot at people without trying to hit them. Yes, I should have the freedom to play like I want as a consumer, but the honest and crappy reality is when I see this as an audience, I usually just turn the car around and go home because it's not worth it for me. By all means, if there is enough support to segregate different levels of play (and therefore, expectations of gameplay), go for it.

This thread is about the behavior of idiots on paintball fields. It's not about the 2nd Amendment. I see this as something tangibly in the control of field owners to correct but they don't. Is it apathy or ignorance? In some cases, if the people behaving poorly have a group, some field owners reward them because they think they're gaining business. I saw a group in New England that systematically went around and destroyed the climate at a number of smaller fields, including one I worked at, because of the way they behaved: starting constant fights, overshooting, not chronographing, etc. The business owner was selling them paint regularly so he was willing to lose the business of all of the people they scared away. In the end, decisions like that cost him.

What irritates me is that these places have 15 year olds acting as 'referees' because they want to save money. They know those kids will work for two bags of paint or whatever, and it saves them having to pay insurance, the hassle of a real bank account with paychecks, etc etc. You get what you pay for. But just as these kids can easily fall into the "terrible referee" category, I think the right people (like a lot of people here) can effectively use social engineering to get them to encourage the RIGHT things.

The main reason I bring up the gear disparity thing is I've seen a surprising amount of bad behavior from pump and pistol players. They seem to think playing with that stuff gives them a trump card in terms of not acting like buffoons. In reality, I have no patience for any of those kinds of people and I certainly don't want them significantly impacting my recreational experience because, at the end of the day, I'm a customer and I paid to be there. Any amount of time I spend trying to enforce safety, blow up bunkers on a field because they're deflated, fix random people's guns, etc, is time I'm not playing. I'm obviously never going to leave people hanging, but, its poor customer service to everyone involved and the "lets beat up on rentals" thing is a huge component of it. I specifically hold field owners and referees accountable for this because it's entirely within their control.
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