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Old 12-13-2018, 11:34 PM   #61 (permalink)
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FL-21?
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Old 12-13-2018, 11:41 PM   #62 (permalink)
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You stated this.

"The DSR is basically an NT done right, and the M3S is basically a CS1."

While the DSR is sort of/kind of an "NT done right", that is kind of selling it short. But yes, the initial motivation was to fix the NT's bolt system.

The FL-21 is the bolt system in the M3. It is nothing like the IV Core in the CS1. So, please take another look at it. If you haven't, you just may appreciate the valve tech and overall unique layout it provides.

To save me from having to explain, just take a gander at this thread: https://www.pbnation.com/showthread....5950741&page=2

Specifically, John's (ironyusa) posts.

Last edited by imped4now; 12-13-2018 at 11:45 PM.
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Old 12-13-2018, 11:45 PM   #63 (permalink)
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Ah, I didn't realize they were calling it the FL-21 bolt.

I guess what I meant was more the Gamma Core. It's just not a blowforward. Otherwise it's very similar.
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Old 12-13-2018, 11:48 PM   #64 (permalink)
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Ah, I didn't realize they were calling it the FL-21 bolt.

I guess what I meant was more the Gamma Core. It's just not a blowforward. Otherwise it's very similar.
See my edit. That will help you out.

I also wouldn't consider the FL-21 to be close to the Gamma Core. The ARC in the DSR is closer to the Gamma than the FL-21 is, certainly.

FYI, John is also behind the Gamma Core and worked on it prior to going to work for Dye. All three designs have their differences. But you've got to look a little deeper than "balanced" and "blowforward."
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Old 12-14-2018, 06:32 PM   #65 (permalink)
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i tootally forgot about the dye nt and dsr. i toootally forgot about the bob guns. i'll give you all those, but i guess i was just speaking in a more general sense regarding different spoolie designs (fuse bolt is just a balanced ion, or an ion is an unbalanced fuese, and a luxe is just a lighter weight sft, with a spring...), and i was definitely ONLY talking about the mainstream guns that you are seeing pro teams use (even if i did forget two major ones, haha).

but my opinion/hypothesis still stands, that HOW MUCH difference do features like hoseless, and longer ergos, and tooless disassembly really make ON THE FIELD?
ergos are preference, hoseless is just shiny imo, and disassembly doesn't happen on the field. not that it cant, but if you have to dismantle your gun behind a dorito, you have bigger issues.

but again, different strokes.

thanx for the correction on the new dye guns and reminding me about bob guns, face palm!
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Old 12-15-2018, 07:16 AM   #66 (permalink)
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but my opinion/hypothesis still stands, that HOW MUCH difference do features like hoseless, and longer ergos, and tooless disassembly really make ON THE FIELD?
ergos are preference, hoseless is just shiny imo, and disassembly doesn't happen on the field. not that it cant, but if you have to dismantle your gun behind a dorito, you have bigger issues.
-Hoseless means less guns going full yard sale/loose hose during bad dives.
-Longer ergos mean a more stable shooting platform. I've honestly never had an easier time running and gunning.
-Quick disassembly means I can clean a broken ball out of my gun between points without digging in my gear bag to find my allens. It also means I'm not hamstrung when some meatball walks away with that one allen I need for my eye covers.

A lot of these changes seem to be strictly cosmetic when you're playing rec or practice points. But they're not updating these things for recreational players, they're updating them for people playing competitive paintball. As someone who runs a (admittedly casual and out of shape) team who shoots older Timmies, Protos, and Cockers during events, switching to a newer platform is like night and day in terms of ease and usability.
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Old 12-15-2018, 07:44 AM   #67 (permalink)
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-Hoseless means less guns going full yard sale/loose hose during bad dives.
-Longer ergos mean a more stable shooting platform. I've honestly never had an easier time running and gunning.
-Quick disassembly means I can clean a broken ball out of my gun between points without digging in my gear bag to find my allens. It also means I'm not hamstrung when some meatball walks away with that one allen I need for my eye covers.

A lot of these changes seem to be strictly cosmetic when you're playing rec or practice points. But they're not updating these things for recreational players, they're updating them for people playing competitive paintball. As someone who runs a (admittedly casual and out of shape) team who shoots older Timmies, Protos, and Cockers during events, switching to a newer platform is like night and day in terms of ease and usability.

That might be the reason for the sharp divide here... I have a feeling that the people saying older guns work just as well as newer ones don't play competitively.

I don't dive, I don't run, and I don't take my stuff apart at the field... I'll just switch to something else if I'm having troubles.

What Magmoormaster and others are pointing out are great reasons why a new gun is better than an old one, for them... it means nothing to me. I hate stretched out guns, I think they look and feel goofy, and hoseless usually means proprietary parts that are expensive.

In the end it's all subjective. Everyone has their own idea of what they like, and I'm glad that such a tiny niche sport has so much variety in it.
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Old 12-15-2018, 11:07 AM   #68 (permalink)
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I do both (well, not as much competitive stuff nowadays), and use/own both.
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