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Old 08-02-2017, 07:33 AM   #11 (permalink)
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I currently have a job close enough to home that I could use an electric car, but I can't afford one. I don't live in an area with mass transit, and can't afford to live in an area that does, so I have a car, with a gas engine, that's relatively fuel efficient, and that allows me to fuel up nearly anywhere I want.

You point out exactly what I was trying to highlight. Your travel options have been limited to getting in the car and driving to make a living. Never mind that just owning it sucks hundreds (and more) of your earned dollars out of your pocket every year and forces you to support the oil industry.

Why did we allow that, when we were all able to live and work within our community?
Why are we do steadfast AGAINST making a change that allows us more transportation options?
Even in places that do have mass transit, why are many of them on the verge of failing and underutilized?

The issue is that we have made it too easy to drive with no incentive to do otherwise. As fossil fuel sources run out, something else will have to be found. It isn't a question of if.


To be fair, I am NOT some eco warrior, merely pointing out the elephant in the room. I own a big *** truck with a V8. I work from home and drive less than 100 miles a month, typically, but need a way to move cargo.
I cycle. I love to use my bike to go places and do things, and yet it's so hard to do so. Even IF I ride my bike to the store, there is no where to lock it while I shop, or eat. Drivers treat cyclist like crap most of the time and it's downright dangerous in a lot of places.


As to the other comment, you DO realize how many technologies even the lowliest modern car has taken from past racing machines, right? And continue to be passed down and testbedded in racing?

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Old 08-02-2017, 08:46 AM   #12 (permalink)
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America is in love with it's cars, and we continue to grasp for straws to try and keep what was a bad idea from the get go. Cars should be a tool, a convenience, not something you have to have, and yet is made a priveledge that can be taken away.....you want to talk control...the car and gas industry have it.
Ha. Now I want to see the come and take it banner with a F-150 on it.

On a different forum they were arguing about how drivers licenses are somewhat unconstitutional because we have the right to travel freely or whatever and the otherside was arguing you need a license to operate heavy machinery on public roads. Fun stuff.
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Old 08-02-2017, 08:57 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Ha. Now I want to see the come and take it banner with a F-150 on it.

On a different forum they were arguing about how drivers licenses are somewhat unconstitutional because we have the right to travel freely or whatever and the otherside was arguing you need a license to operate heavy machinery on public roads. Fun stuff.

Licensing and mandatory insurance are a "get in my craw" type situation. A car is a tool, like anything else, a dangerous one yes....but there was no precedent for requiring a person to be licensed to drive it. Didn't need one to ride a horse, or a bike, even fly a plane when first invented.
What really gets me is the states habit of charging you for crimes when you haven't actually done anything (yet) in DUI, and taking away your ability to drive (and earn a living, etc) because you owe money, child support, didn't go to court, past tag fees, no insurance, etc. like they like to do. Knowing you can't make a living, then you are set up to be actually breaking a law driving like they know you likely will have to do.

Anyway, as you say...that's another forum.
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Old 08-02-2017, 11:33 AM   #14 (permalink)
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agreed, so now we will be driving coal cars?
Give the Chinese an electric car and it will very possibly be coal driven. Electric cars just shift the power load to the electric distribution grid. By the time you look at the combustion of fossil fuels at the power plant, the transmission losses to your house, and the conversion losses to and from the battery, you are no longer in range of a magical increase in efficiency. You have to throw in gasoline distribution losses in to be fair.

As a simple rule of thumb, you can say a car will be about 40% efficient, where a good turbine setup will be 80% efficient. Throw out about 4% every time you convert your electricity from one spot to another, and you are down to a 28% advantage. Weigh that against improvements in combustion processes and changes in infrastructure and materials.

Solar and wind power generation are the only thing that make electric cars a truly environmental benefit.

If you just go with the "government says so" or "I want one" attitude and accept full electric vehicles, the next question for any particular community is whether or not the electrical infrastructure can handle the additional power required to run some or all of the fossil fuel presently distributed in the area for transportation. You can add some efficiency factor, only take a fraction of the traffic, and use off-peak generation considerations, but in the end there are places that are strained as it is.

I have to wonder if they will ever develop a giant battery that you can use for a remote charging station, like an electrical tanker truck.
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Old 08-02-2017, 11:55 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Electric cars just shift the power load to the electric distribution grid. By the time you look at the combustion of fossil fuels at the power plant, the transmission losses to your house, and the conversion losses to and from the battery, you are no longer in range of a magical increase in efficiency. You have to throw in gasoline distribution losses in to be fair.

It's important to note here that the generation methods for power have been drastically changed within the last COUPLE of years. I was taught this thinking that we still had some huge coal dependency, which we don't. It would have been safe to assume the same of the Chinese, but there are drastic changes going on within their infrastructure for power generation as well. No other country is making leaps and bounds in solar and alt power than China. They are looking to breath some clean air.
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Old 08-02-2017, 12:23 PM   #16 (permalink)
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the next question for any particular community is whether or not the electrical infrastructure can handle the additional power required
i do remember reading a while back that if you had an electric car you could/would have an agreement with the power company to accept whatever current they had for you at that time and vice-versa.
the idea was that if hundreds of thousands or millions of people got home and plugged in their car, there would be "issues" and you had to agree to certain terms.

i'm saying this as someone talking out of his butt and not googling my "facts" ; grain of salt analogy.

my power company was trying this a few years ago that your bill could be lowered if you agreed that they could shut off your air conditioner in the summer months.
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Old 08-02-2017, 01:33 PM   #17 (permalink)
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It's important to note here that the generation methods for power have been drastically changed within the last COUPLE of years. I was taught this thinking that we still had some huge coal dependency, which we don't. It would have been safe to assume the same of the Chinese, but there are drastic changes going on within their infrastructure for power generation as well. No other country is making leaps and bounds in solar and alt power than China. They are looking to breath some clean air.
What the Chinese can do and what they will do...

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/01/c...te-change.html

Scrubber and precipitator technologies have rendered coal almost as clean as any other fuel, just a little less efficient (if applied). Figure CO2 emissions on a Btu basis, and fossil fuels are about all the same when cleaned up. Carbon is carbon.

https://www.lcra.org/energy/electric...s/default.aspx

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my power company was trying this a few years ago that your bill could be lowered if you agreed that they could shut off your air conditioner in the summer months.
Those AC switches would help a lot at night, and a billing structure to capture costs from people without them would help too. The real poop would hit the fan around Houston in the summer evenings when people need a quick charge while others are peaking on the AC.
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Old 08-02-2017, 01:36 PM   #18 (permalink)
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i'm saying this as someone talking out of his butt and not googling my "facts" ; grain of salt analogy.
That's my favorite way to converse, especially with memes and terribly incongruent pop-culture references. It leaves a lot of room for people to yell at each other over the internet. I don't want to talk to pseudo-intellectual google interfaces.


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Solar and wind power generation are the only thing that make electric cars a truly environmental benefit.
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No other country is making leaps and bounds in solar and alt power than China. They are looking to breath some clean air.
Yes and no. Solar and Wind power cost more to produce vs coal/natural gas/nuclear. Since those three have been around longer(not including windmills & waterwheels) our infrastructure is already built around them that factors into making them cheaper, but how much? you'd have to ask a money magician working in those industries.

The government could subsidize solar and wind and hope it breaks even IIRC they tried subsidizing that with coaxial? data cables and haven't broken even yet.

The rare earth metals needed for transistors are arguably more destructive to mine and process than uranium or coal.

China is making "leaps and bounds" by producing as much as they can at break neck speeds. They have ghost cities and concrete filled with styrofoam.

They maybe producing panels cheaper, but they are not making solar panels any more efficient.

They dump their waste into their rivers and let smog roll over their cities. They're air would probably be cleaner if they stuck to coal.
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Old 08-02-2017, 01:48 PM   #19 (permalink)
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If you think back to a bit over a hundro years ago, there were rivers here in America catching fire due to the sheer amount of pollutants, etc. Right after our manufacturing and industrial boom, it was the wild west. Consider how far behind us China was just a meager number of years ago. They are poised to be the world leader in pretty much everything. The pollution will come under control, eventually...maybe...
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Old 08-02-2017, 01:53 PM   #20 (permalink)
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The rare earth metals needed for transistors are arguably more destructive to mine and process than uranium or coal.
I recently had the occasion to drive by the Kosse lignite mine. That stuff is not far under the surface. They roll the top soil back over as they finish an area. For the sheer amount of power capacity pulled out of there, it looks really good.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ko...!4d-96.4953232

The Donie mine is a little north of there. Both are not that large of a surface scar compared to all of the fracking pads scattered nearby for natural gas.

If solar cells would be more durable and rugged, it would be worth dedicating the surface area to them at some point.
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