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Old 01-12-2018, 05:18 PM   #21 (permalink)
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It was dark all around
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Old 01-12-2018, 05:51 PM   #22 (permalink)
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My father's first cousin was a driver in a Sherman. 5'2" and 110 pounds soaking wet, he threw his gunner, a man over 6 feet and 250 pounds out of the THIRD burning Sherman he had to get out of. Toughest man I have ever known and his sons are the second, third, and fourth toughest men I know. Also one of the kindest men I have ever known. Worked dang hard to raise six kids on a hundred acres of rocky ground, spoke softly, and loved a big noise. Shot groundhogs with a 7mm Remington (Pike too) and on New Year's Eve set off 20+ sticks of dynamite to let the neighbours and the adjacent counties know he was still alive... They built them different back then. They went to war when asked to, did what they had to do, came home, and went to work building us a country to be proud of. Cannot look at a Sherman and not think fondly of Kieth MacMaster from Glengarry...
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Old 01-12-2018, 07:01 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Bored383 View Post

armor - the frontal slope of the shermans armor was very effective. the quality of the metal was also very good. again to the first link - that soviet tanker said shermans would take hits and not spall, the russians tanks would. spalling is when a tank is hit and not penetrated, but the armor on the inside is shattered loose and become shrapnel. this is bad for the crew. the german tanks suffered from brittle armor as the war wore on - they were known to shatter from hits.


Spalling continued to be a thing for the Soviets for decades.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High...ve_squash_head
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Old 01-12-2018, 07:01 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Yeah but we have spall vests now...
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...just following the natural paintball life cycle. Young with no money and drooling over all the nice toys ---> Old with toy money and no time to play.

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Old 01-20-2018, 12:51 AM   #25 (permalink)
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some more info for this all

this vid from Nicholas Moran was just put up today:

https://youtu.be/TwIlrAosYiM

he references another speech by John Parshall - another favorite historian / author of mine, known primarily for his work on the IJN and the naval war in WW2, but he has a talk regarding tanks in WW2 - so a link to it:

https://youtu.be/N6xLMUifbxQ?t=26m19s

if you want to go down a different rabbit hole, go to Nihon Kaigun and also get a copy of "Shattered Sword", a fantastic work regarding the Battle of Midway

but back to the sherman . . . deep data dives yield interesting results. US Armor forces had ~1400 fatalities during WW2. Think about that. Total US military fatalities in WW2 was ~400k.
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Old 01-20-2018, 05:55 AM   #26 (permalink)
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^ I get ya. I have read a LOT of books about WW2, a great deal of first hand diary style accounts and the issue was one that stuck with me. I even mention that your linked video "guy" even said it himself. We had far superior support when it came time to actually face German armor divisions as well as a far superior supply line, and even of utmost importance...we had gas. It played a very large and pivotal role in how well the numbers played out. The Germans were making some damned fine, if finicky, armor towards the middle and end of the war, they simply couldn't support them.

Honestly, our role in that war was almost laughable as compared to the blood, sweat, and tears the Russians and to some degree the Brits put in. All we did was build a whole lot of stuff and "free" Western Europe. Our role in the war has long been overplayed. We actually spent much more of our resources defeating the war machine of Japan.

Edit- it is important to note that by the time we were on the ground and in striking range of Germany, that Hitler's decision making regarding Stalingrad had already sealed Germany's fate.

Edit 2- Take a look at some reading here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanks_in_World_War_II

particularly the German section: "The Germans started to develop newer, heavier tanks. This included the Panzer V Panther, which was intended to be the new main German medium tank. The Panther tank was a compromise of various requirements. While sharing essentially the same engine as the Tiger I tank, it had better frontal armor, better gun penetration, was lighter overall and thus faster, and could handle rough terrain better than the Tigers. The trade-off was much weaker side armor; the Panther proved to be deadly in open country and shooting from long range, but was vulnerable in close-quarters combat or to flank shots.[39]
The Germans also started to develop a new series of heavy tanks. The first was the Tiger, which outclassed all its opponents in terms of firepower and armor when it was first put into operational use. The even heavier Tiger II (deemed "King Tiger" by Allied troops) supplemented the Tiger I late in the war. Its powerful gun and very heavy armor made it superior to nearly every Allied or Soviet tank in a one-on-one confrontation, but poor mobility, speed and reliability limited its use."

and

"M4s formed the main tank of American, British, Canadian, French, Polish and Chinese units. The M4 was the equal of the German medium tanks, the Panzer III and Panzer IV, at the time it first saw service in 1942. The Red Army was supplied with about 4,000 M4s.[31] The M4, although reliable and easy to maintain, was already outgunned by the time the US encountered the up-gunned and up-armored German medium tanks in Italy and Northern Europe (the Panzer IV and various German self-propelled guns) and by late 1943 the arrival of German Panther and Tiger I were even graver threats due to the range, accuracy and penetrating power of their main guns."
There are many Europeans that would disagree. Many in fact that still celebrate their Yankee liberators.
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Old 01-20-2018, 05:57 AM   #27 (permalink)
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here is the skinny - no one is arguing the sherman was superior in anything but numbers, reliability, and repair-ability (that is really important) what will be argued is that there are an inordinate number of unfair and dishonest myths about the sherman

it was a very good general purpose tank, designed primarily for infantry support. It was used in combat in whatever role it found itself stuck in. in service they were reliable - probably the most reliable tank of the war. and they were repairable. Want to replace the transmission on a sherman? it unbolts from the front of the tank . . . want to replace the transmission on a panther or tiger? step 1 is remove the turret . . . .

see a problem already? oh - and the transmission in the sherman was not overburdened like in those big german tanks. the weight of those big german tanks stressed their drivetrains.

want to transport a sherman? stick it on a train, or on the back of a transporter. want to transport a tiger? replace the tracks with the narrow gauge ones is the first step to hauling it by train . . . that means removing and stowing a significant number of the road wheels.

speaking of road wheels and suspension - a damaged roadwheel on a tiger might require you to remove multiple to get to it. sherman has a bad wheel on a bogey? unbolt the bogey as a unit and replace. most maintenance on the sherman was far simpler - they were able to be repaired and returned to action far quicker. this enhanced the effect of their numbers

as for catching on fire - both US and german tanks, and many brit tanks, were gas fueled. the russians loved diesel. so catching on fire because of gas was an issue for all . . . but was worse was having stored ammo catch fire - and the sherman was modified during the war to have wet stowage to seriously mitigate this. The article I linked from the soviet service of the sherman, the author says that the t34's (often held up as the best tank...) were far worse for cooking up than the shermans. fire was something all the tanks had to worry about, plain and simple.

escapable. that "guy"* I linked the youtube video from, he has a whole series of vids where he goes in and around ww2 tanks. one of his schticks is showing how easy - or hard - they are to get out of. guess what tank was easy to escape from? the sherman. crew fatalities were reduced because of this. in fact crew survivability is one of the things that the deep diving number crunchers can prove . . . down to even how US crews had less injuries and fatalities in shermans than the brits because US doctrine was the crew wore helmets and brit doctrine was the crew wore berets

armor - the frontal slope of the shermans armor was very effective. the quality of the metal was also very good. again to the first link - that soviet tanker said shermans would take hits and not spall, the russians tanks would. spalling is when a tank is hit and not penetrated, but the armor on the inside is shattered loose and become shrapnel. this is bad for the crew. the german tanks suffered from brittle armor as the war wore on - they were known to shatter from hits.

cliff notes - the sherman was not the horrible nightmare the myths say it is. it was a competent vehicle that performed well.

One day, I WILL own a functional Sherman.
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Old 01-20-2018, 02:41 PM   #28 (permalink)
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One day, I WILL own a functional Sherman.
Funny you say this. After reading this thread I went to look at military auction sites for that exact same thing....

I’d love to buy my old M1A2 Abrams some day way down the line when I retire as a billionaire but that might not be in the cards. Hell at this point I’d just like to know where she is and if she’s still active. I got her new in 2002 (I’m top left).

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Old 01-20-2018, 06:47 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Great pic, Manning!

All this Sherman tank talk makes me want to watch ‘Tank’, with James Garner
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Old 01-21-2018, 10:37 PM   #30 (permalink)
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I've been looking into (read: dreaming) buying a tank for years. Was really tempted to go to the little field auction, and would have probably bought the dead trainer uni for $3k just to say I had one (even though it was cut in half and had no engine or track). Would have made some cool yard art.
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