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-   -   9/16...11/16 (https://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/autocockers/318454-9-16-11-16-a.html)

fossilhead 02-16-2019 08:02 AM

9/16...11/16
 
Valve question.

Ok.
I'm coming back into the game after a hiatus.
Is this basically pre 2k vs post 2k?

baconquilt 02-16-2019 09:51 AM

No, pre2k/2k+ had to do with the banjo bolts holding the front block on. 11/16 also has its own front block threads fwiw.



More or less, its 9/16 WGP spec vs 11/16 merlin spec.


The 11/16 doesnt utilize the jam nut either. only the grub screw holding the valve in place. 11/16 is a through bore design vs 9/16 which has smaller bores up front holding the valve and spring in place.

fossilhead 02-16-2019 11:06 AM

Ok.
What is the benefit of 11/16?

Joegel 02-16-2019 11:11 AM

Following out of curiosity.

fossilhead 02-16-2019 11:34 AM

Only reason I ask is, valves are offered in both sizes.

If I'm gonna drop hard earned money.

I want to get the best option.

With as little confusion as possible.

ilivlife 02-16-2019 11:36 AM

A body is either 9/16 or 11/16, a body can not fit both.

woouulf 02-16-2019 11:39 AM

Ok.
What is the benefit of 11/16?

I never thought there was , now I could be wrong but 11/16 availability on the used market is pretty slim and the ease of finding 9/16 AC spec. out weighs any benefits..

fossilhead 02-16-2019 11:45 AM

So...
No cocker tool on 11/16?

ilivlife 02-16-2019 11:55 AM

You can get new in both sizes but like woouulf said hard to find used 11/16.

The only benefit I can think of is flow since there is more area for air to move through in an 11 which means you can lower your operating preassure.

fossilhead 02-16-2019 12:01 PM

So... they changed it from 9 to 11 so they could make a few bucks?

I'd like to think there's a better reason.

woouulf 02-16-2019 12:02 PM

Most 11/16 are in the 200-230 psi range as I remember compared to 300-325 to 9/16 ..

hellion360 02-16-2019 12:17 PM

Yeah the 11/16ths tend towards being lower in pressure with a larger valve face. There is no particular performance difference as far as I have seen. The milling on the 11/16 valved bodies is simpler to execute since there is no internal threading or step.

jerryjjackson69 02-16-2019 12:34 PM

11/16 doesn't require a valve tool, typically can run a lower pressure, and doesn't have the extra valve nut part.

Ydna 02-17-2019 01:46 AM

Mostly I think it's just a change in manufacturing, or possibly a change made to volumize the air chamber, I can't say which concept came first (chicken or egg). The valve stem itself is very similar if not identical between the two, so it's just the valve housing which is different shaped.

magmoormaster 02-17-2019 01:48 PM

Gaurantee it was a machining cost change. The first wgp cocker to use an 11/16th valve was the trilogy. Many many design decisions were made on that gun to get machining costs down, which is why they were able to retail them for so little. The valve design was definitely one of them, seeing how they were set from the factory at 300 psi.After the trilogy, the 06 black magic had them, same with the SR.

That's at least true on the wgp side of things, which has been perpetuated by modern companies like inception.

Alternatively, aka did 11/16th valves in their merlins because they were gunning for the lowest possible operating pressure. Drilling the entire bottom tube out to 11/16th meant that they could mini their guns and still have more volume than a full size 2k spec gun.

fossilhead 02-17-2019 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by magmoormaster (Post 3559916)
Gaurantee it was a machining cost change. The first wgp cocker to use an 11/16th valve was the trilogy. Many many design decisions were made on that gun to get machining costs down, which is why they were able to retail them for so little. The valve design was definitely one of them, seeing how they were set from the factory at 300 psi.After the trilogy, the 06 black magic had them, same with the SR.

That's at least true on the wgp side of things, which has been perpetuated by modern companies like inception.

Alternatively, aka did 11/16th valves in their merlins because they were gunning for the lowest possible operating pressure. Drilling the entire bottom tube out to 11/16th meant that they could mini their guns and still have more volume than a full size 2k spec gun.

Bam!
Thats what I was looking for.

The_Hyren 04-01-2019 12:13 AM

Additionally the 11/16 valve is held by the valve body locking set screw only where the 9/16 used the locking set screw solely for indexing and the jam nut held the valve in place. The 11/16 chamber of the trilogy and sr are not straight through, never owned a BM, there is a shelf created where the trigger frame screw goes in, otherwise that screw would need thread sealer to not leak. And in SRs the chamber is off center and narrow due to the body recession for the pilot of the front solenoid.

Valve wise your choices are namely, aka, ID, alien, pps, and wgp (delrin in SRs, brass in trilogies)

The ID is a minor improvement to the aka, a drag wing design such that air flowing around the wings adds closing forces which makes the dwell lower which improves efficiency.

The alien is 2x the cost but fully balanced, sadly the machining is off and they take lots of work to get working right. They also don't fit in SR due to the length of the valve being too long. Advantages are namely less hammer spring tension so lower lpr so better paint handling. Also very quiet and bass heavy sound, **** efficiency.

Others are pointless.

Cunha 04-01-2019 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by magmoormaster (Post 3559916)
Gaurantee it was a machining cost change. The first wgp cocker to use an 11/16th valve was the trilogy. Many many design decisions were made on that gun to get machining costs down, which is why they were able to retail them for so little. The valve design was definitely one of them, seeing how they were set from the factory at 300 psi.After the trilogy, the 06 black magic had them, same with the SR.

That's at least true on the wgp side of things, which has been perpetuated by modern companies like inception.

Alternatively, aka did 11/16th valves in their merlins because they were gunning for the lowest possible operating pressure. Drilling the entire bottom tube out to 11/16th meant that they could mini their guns and still have more volume than a full size 2k spec gun.

Its a machining issue like you suspected.

Akalmp was making their own extrusion and also wanted to clean up the process.

Old valve type is sheridan based.

All valve variations including the setup meteor uses have been for cost.

I think the aka cocker valve and the merlin valve run at same pressures. I dont think the 9 16 is limiting in this way.

I like the 9 16 because of tradition. No valve tool on the 11 16 is nice.

The 9 16 is more secure with the jam nut. You might argue its better.

noclue119 05-03-2019 11:32 PM

I might add, 11/16 valves can leak if you over tighten the valve retaining screw. It was a common problem I saw working on empire snipers and some other cockers

fossilhead 05-04-2019 04:09 AM

Begs the question.
If it was easier... and there's no difference?

I'm betting there is a difference.
The 9/16 is designed for anti-siphon co2 and the 11/16 is compressed air only.

Keep in mind...
We are dealing with an old crossman/sheridan design with a 9/16.

Co2 is the thing!

der cockermeister 05-09-2019 08:10 PM

Aside from manufacture and operating pressure/ post regulated volume advantages, the rear body o-ring on 11/16 valves should theoretically convey a gain in efficiency.

The_Hyren 05-10-2019 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by der cockermeister (Post 3584113)
Aside from manufacture and operating pressure/ post regulated volume advantages, the rear body o-ring on 11/16 valves should theoretically convey a gain in efficiency.

Id wager that rounds to zero. The jam nut has an oring and not much air will escape through the threads. The cup seal stem fitment in the valve body and having an oring probably makes the real difference.

magmoormaster 05-10-2019 06:29 PM

Most jam nuts do not have o-rings, and those that do only have them to prevent it from loosening up. Due to its placement, it's not going to seal anything.

I do agree that the rear o-ring is probably minimal in terms of air savings, though.

der cockermeister 05-11-2019 11:26 AM

Key word was theoretically. It should have at least as much effect as going from an o-ringless bolt to a ringed one would, though.

cfos00 05-20-2019 06:40 PM

I just had some crazy results with a couple of guns with the valve being the main difference. Not sure what kind of voodoo is going on here.

So a normal reflex autococker (autococker with R/T system, not Dye's version) is a pre-2k marker, so 9/16 valve. I have turned down valve stems on stock valves, but otherwise almost the same set up as a 11/16th version of my new reflex kit in an ID cocker. That valve is one of Simon's new ones. The bolts are the same, and barrels are all freaked. The 3 ways are different as well, but pretty much otherwise the same. The ID cocker got 400-500 more shots out of a 100ci 4500psi tank.

That's a crazy difference. I've run my pre-2k cockers with low and higher pressure. I've had tornado valves in there. I just don't know how it's such a massive difference. Is there any kind of inherit efficiency difference?

magmoormaster 05-20-2019 07:35 PM

The difference in valve design can be huge. You said you have a stock valve in the reflex? Like, stock 90s brass valve? Yeah, those suck for efficiency. Unless you have an ID valve in that, it's not comparable at all.

cfos00 05-20-2019 08:51 PM

Same stock valve design as the eclipse supercharger and about half the other valves on the market, with the valve stem cut down by about 50 percent. They actually have worked better than full aka set ups for them. Had tornados in there too, including with mighty max/unported barrel/3 oringed bolt


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