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Old 10-10-2009, 09:21 PM   #111 (permalink)
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looks familiar. i did the same thing with my trash can phantom. works damn good.

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Old 10-11-2009, 12:13 PM   #112 (permalink)
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I had my 1st trial with regged 12g on my 2004 WGP bodied pump today. Sweet spotted inline reg on HPA first, with around 380psi giving the best velocity. I then swapped to a 12g changer on the ASA bottom line. This was result from a red (radar) chronograph, and a ROF of about 3 shots a minute - allowing for me to write down result.

WGP internals are stock, and inline reg's a short CMI - providing minimal post reg volume

CMI International R-2000 In-line Regulator | Paintball Review | pbreview.com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~
See attachment below for chart

Adjusted velocity*
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~

Even though I sweet-spotted reg at 280fps on HPA, the velocity dropped back to 240fps on swapping to CO2, but I adjusted velocity to compensate. The paint was a mixed bag of leftovers - orange Sterling & Proto Ice (winter) formula, which may account for the odd high/low shots. Barrel was a 14" dye boomstick - 0.689, which was slightly too big for paint, so roll-out may also have been an issue.

The peak velocity on shots #37 & #38 just before it vented, shows inline pressure was set slightly too high. I think sweet spot needs to be closer to 350psi on Co2, and I'll try this on a second test. I'll also try a fresh bag of paint and match bore to it first.


Still… 37 shots from a 12g with zero tweaking isn't bad at all

This project is going to be fun
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Last edited by Gee Tee; 11-19-2009 at 04:48 PM.
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Old 10-12-2009, 12:46 AM   #113 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gee Tee View Post


Still… 37 shots from a 12g with zero tweaking isn't bad at all

This project is going to be fun
Agreed
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mailmanmike Since Monday! That's more than 4 hours though, so according to those cialis ads I should see my doctor.
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Old 10-13-2009, 03:08 PM   #114 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cjottawa View Post
Well, I've got a dummy 12-gram and a Nelspot 007 with a rear drop-out changer.

Now you've got me thinking...

- dummy 12-gram
- female PPS Stablizer on the bottom of the grip
- 12-gram bucket on ASA of female Stab'
Sounds easy enough. Would a UMB like the ones used on PGP's work on the Nelson?
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THE-SHOOTIST Anyone chubbin' like me for this?
mailmanmike Since Monday! That's more than 4 hours though, so according to those cialis ads I should see my doctor.
tlane77 I think for a non-chemical chubby it's 6 hours before its time to see a doctor. So you should be good for another couple hours.
splattttttt I wasn't goin to google "chubbin" because I assumed it had to do with fat. The lard type, not the fun stuff. But what ever feelings Jeff's experiencing, then they must be of the fun like stuff...
tlane77 He's got a woody for your woods.
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Old 11-16-2009, 06:02 PM   #115 (permalink)
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Russc, thank you for very interesting thread.

It is exceptionally interesting for me, because I remember that about three years ago, I was blamed with some old, trusted, gun whores in one SCP thread about cocker efficiency, because I have fixed option (based on my experiments with P68SC) that mimi expansion chamber and reg can help with Sheridan marker efficiency. They were so smart with thier common formulas about "dead space"... It is obvious, that some people are experienced in forums, and others in such like "dumb", real world or "scientific experiments" :- ).

Your results are encouraging... but to be honest, not much fascinating for me. Imho the goal should be about 60+ shoots above 250 fps per powerlet with regulated SC setup (with highter shoot value depending on barrel lenght, paint to bore match etc). I think that Punisher has already proved that with thier "Avenger" pump (63 shoots with 295-240 fps per powerlet).

From my experiences, every really good tunned Sheridan can get ~35 shoots above 250 fps per powerlet even without regulator - with my P68SC I have archieved 35 shoots above 250 fps (and first 30 are above 265 fps), with old style PGP even 42 shoots above 250 fps - and that all without mini expanision chamber, withthout insta-pierce, with one shoot per 3s and in tempereture about 15°C (59°F)... Imho the main reason for great efficiency of "stock" Phantoms or Carters is thier simplicity - when there is skilled craftsman who understand thier work, it is easy make efficient Nelson style marker. With Sheridans and Sterlings, the valving, bolt... it is more complex. But when such like only moderately tunned unregulated CA pumps can archieve 290 fps with 0.2 gram per shoot, 60 high-power shoots per powerlet should be attainable for really good SC marker.

Imho the key is boost the Airflow and minimalize the valve dwell... eliminate bouncing... increase the direct way passages from valve cup seal to chamber and minimalize the undirect spaces after valve cup seal... minimalize leaks after valve and barrel chamber... slow the expansion from powerlet to reg by X-chamber... using reg... or "check valve".

Perhaps in some years, pumps what will get more than 55 shoots per powerlet will be quite common in between of Stock class players.
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Old 11-16-2009, 06:14 PM   #116 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viherkogen View Post
My marker always seems to do worse than advertised. I guess Ill go back to my regular setup, sweet spot the reg again, and tune my springs if need be. Once I set a base, I'll break out a reball and see what every little change does.
Viherkogen if I can give a little advice to you, then imho your Sniper will be alot efficient, if you throw the delrin bolt without o-rings in garbage can and when you change the barrel for good onepiece barrel with smaller internal diameter than .685". You have simply leaks around ball in chamber and barrel. That is imho the main reason why your marker is not so efficient.
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Old 11-17-2009, 09:42 PM   #117 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3022 View Post
Imho the goal should be about 60+ shoots above 250 fps per powerlet with regulated SC setup (with highter shoot value depending on barrel lenght, paint to bore match etc).
To be fair, nearly everyone in this thread is chronoing way above 250; it's a little tricky with a regulated gun because there isn't that dropoff curve. If you set most of these guns to 250-260, you'd probably see a 10+ shot increase which puts most of them over 50. All this with basically zero tuning, another major point of this thread.
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Old 11-17-2009, 10:44 PM   #118 (permalink)
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I'm curious to see what efficiency numbers I'll achieve when I try this with my Buzzard.
Gonna star at 600psi, and work my way lower. Any performance tips?
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THE-SHOOTIST Anyone chubbin' like me for this?
mailmanmike Since Monday! That's more than 4 hours though, so according to those cialis ads I should see my doctor.
tlane77 I think for a non-chemical chubby it's 6 hours before its time to see a doctor. So you should be good for another couple hours.
splattttttt I wasn't goin to google "chubbin" because I assumed it had to do with fat. The lard type, not the fun stuff. But what ever feelings Jeff's experiencing, then they must be of the fun like stuff...
tlane77 He's got a woody for your woods.
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Old 11-18-2009, 01:25 PM   #119 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drg View Post
To be fair, nearly everyone in this thread is chronoing way above 250; it's a little tricky with a regulated gun because there isn't that dropoff curve. If you set most of these guns to 250-260, you'd probably see a 10+ shot increase which puts most of them over 50. All this with basically zero tuning, another major point of this thread.
Two or three things:

- You do not understand me correctly (perhaps because I do not speak corectly). Mine shoots "above 250 fps" are from major part often around 280-270 fps. 250 fps is for me only the border where I count the shoots like good. Here is for example one velocity graph from tunning of mine P68SC (the light blue is PPS Superstocker, for comparsion).



...with (pre 2001) PGPs it is heavier get the highter fps, because they have a lot shorter "efficient barrel lenght", but it is likewise not problem to get 300 fps and I have the shoots in beginning commonly set on 270-280 fps, to be safely below 300 fps and to do not stress the crappy paint with quick acceleration in the short 6" barrel... (regrettably, I can not paste here the recent graps of my PGPs because my computer is broken and I have not placed them on webspace yet). But I have seen graph from one Palmerized PGP where the numbers were around 290 fps and the shout cound were around 50.


- from my experiences, the biggest problem with tunning Stock Class marker for efficiency, without regulator and X-chamber, is to stay surely below 300 fps with first shoots and be hight with last shoots, when the liqiud will dilute (thin up) and then when the pressure will slope down, stepwise, with consuming CO2 with previous shoots. With different valve dwell seting, it will be possible shoot with the gun even on the there lower pressures, but practically, you can not change the valve dwell during the shooting... But you can use the reg. Bassically, the reg will make small CA gun from SC gun. Regulation trought vaporization of liquid will be replaced with mechanical preesure regulation like in HPA system. This is imho the main asset from reg - you can create pressure stability in valve chamber in long term during shooting, spread out the power from powerlet in time and flatten out the curve. From this reason, are my guns (so far - without regs) commonly most efficient with thier first ten shoots set very hight (~290 fps).


- Another thing is common misunderstanding that when you lower the velocity, you will always automaticaly get better endurance. It sounds logically perhaps, but in reallity is that only silly simplification and the world is more complex than that. Perhaps this can be true in case of Nelson style markers, but with Sheridans it is different from my experiences. Every combination of barrel, valve, bolt and "frame tubing" (chamber/valve oppening) has here his own optimal combination of opperating pressure and valve dwell, or perhaps only his optimal amount of gas "fired in valve". If you send less gas in valve, the gun can be inefficinet. When you have great airflow with one setup, for example, you can get the highter velocities with him easily, but when you will reduce the amount of gas what you send in valve below some border, he will expand here in the large passages unefficiently, the pressure will drop before the chamber and you will get the same amount of shoots, but with less fps, or more shoots, but all unusable low. I have seen that in many cases during my tests.
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Old 11-18-2009, 01:40 PM   #120 (permalink)
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Good to see you around again 3022, haven't seen you post in a couple years.

I think one thing you're missing is that the guns we are testing are designed for Low pressure operation, around 300 psi compared to the 800psi+ that the stock Sheridan valve was designed for.

Because the operating pressure is so low, the guns are able to shoot further into the cartridge. While a Sheridan will start losing velocity once pressure drops below a certain point, or when the shots are being fired before the liquid can boil off and equalize, these Snipers are still operating at their most efficient pressure.
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