Vinyl

[Magmoormaster]

So now that the stimulus package has been passed and signed, I'm getting ready to pull the trigger on this. Here's what I'm looking at:

Fluance RT80 Turntable
Boundless Audio carbon fiber record brush
fun record storage thing that matches my furniture

And of course a handful of records. I already snagged "In a Safe Place" by The Album Leaf, and Periphery's Juggernaut, because some good deals popped up.

I'm also looking at getting something along these lines:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08JGWHBHL...v_ov_lig_dp_it

I'm planning on using my M-Audio studio speakers to run the turntable, but they're typically hooked up to my laptop via a Focusrite Scarlet Solo. The RCA splitter would let me split the signal to the speakers between the turntable and the Focusrite. But if there's an easier/better way to do that, I'm all ears.

Is there anything else I need or should get?

[SignOfZeta]

I’m not sure what the DC-24 was originally designed for, general studio compression use I guess...but at the radio station we use them on the end of the signal chain and it makes all the difference with new DJs who can’t match levels and such. It’s also SO good for a bass player on a budget. It brings a ton of life out of a $99 bass with shot strings.

[cellophane]

The pickups, the strings, the head, etc all contribute to the overall sound and people love the sensation of overly saturated low frequencies, not just more bass but more responsive bass. Like having a Rane DC 24 hooked to your CD player. It’s all thick and juicy and I love it...but it’s not accurate, it’s not high fidelity.

Fun side note: I had to lookup the Rane DC 24 because I had no idea what it is, and the first paragraph in the manual for it is a riot:

QUICK START
Shredded, this document makes excellent packing material. In its present form, it makes interesting and useful reading. If you run out of patience quickly, at least read this part to make sure you don’t exterminate everything in a two mile radius by doing some-thing wrong.

The whole manual has that same tone. Makes me want to buy something from Rane.

Additional side note: I ❤ bass. I miss subs so big you could crawl inside of them... A full-on sonic massage. It turns the music from a 1-dimensional experience into a multi-dimensional experience. I do however despise all the light shows... give me super minimal lighting, a bigass sound system, and lots of techno and I'm set.

If I had to be honest the main thing I like about records is the physical act of playing them. Big pictures and track indexes, faster to cue than iTunes if the record is out already. No screens! I like being able to see how far along I am on a side just by looking where the tonearm is at the moment. I’m also a huge fan of print in general so having full sized covers is nice

I'm a big fan of the physical engagement of Vinyl as well. There is a level of intention to it that I don't get with a CD or digital file. I love digital files for the convenience of being able to carry several weeks/months worth of music in my pocket but it isn't the same from an experience standpoint. There is also the argument to be made (I mentioned this earlier) for the album as a body of work that is ceasing to exist. The streaming market has caused a lot of artists to evolve, for better or worse, to make short songs that in turn get a lot of plays (i.e. more $$) instead of making an experience to listen to. Part of what makes In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida cool is the fact that it goes on forever; it is the entire B-side of the album. That would never work as a mainstream song now.

[SignOfZeta]

Hang on...you’re under the impression that records are of a higher fidelity than...whatever you’re listening to now? That is the reason?

Ok, here’s a fact you won’t notice on Instagram...records don’t sound that good. Even on the absolute best systems on earth, $250,000 gold plated linear tracking decks with their own poured concrete foundations with hand wound moving coil carts fitted into head shells of CNCed Zibra wood can’t even begin to sound as good as a $200 Sony Walkman such as the NW-Axx series plugged into the same stereo system. If your system is for real you’ll still get very entertaining full range sound from records, “better” than CD, because CD is too accurate and what people really think is “better” is not so much the sound of the record but the sound of the entire system including the record. It’s very much like an electric guitar. The pickups, the strings, the head, etc all contribute to the overall sound and people love the sensation of overly saturated low frequencies, not just more bass but more responsive bass. Like having a Rane DC 24 hooked to your CD player. It’s all thick and juicy and I love it...but it’s not accurate, it’s not high fidelity. It’s massively dynamically compressed compared to the file/tape it was generated from. These days true high fi comes from downloads (because Super Audio CD is very nearly dead now and the selection is terrible), for example the quad rate DSD version of the Akira soundtrack which I can assure does things totally impossible on wax. This is the sort of thing that’s so obvious from actual listening that nobody needs to even bother with the mountain of scientific measurements that prove what you hear. However high res digital downloads are very hard to show off and aren’t really playable on a lot of modern devices so many people don’t even realize they exist. I have multiple copies of ELP’s Trilogy on LP (I buy every copy I see) and none of them sound half as good as the 24-bit FLAC. If you value a low noise floor, stay the hell away from records. When everything gets quiet...you can hardly hear anything!

As I pointed out, terrible signal to noise ratio. Terrible. It’s one thing for your fuzzy phaser pedal to make a roar of swirly sound with no strings played but an album is made to be heard as clearly as possible. Accuracy isn’t a thing in ones guitar rig (the artist is the reference) but it is in high fidelity. Beyond that it has loads of pops because perfectly clean grooves are a myth and static is created by the act of playing the records as well as a million other things in the room. Randomly defective records are surprising common and they all wear out eventually. And all these cool picture discs...they just sound like crap. Nonstop roaring hiss on picture discs, pretty much every single picture disc sounds really really bad.

Do you know how much a Zerostat gun costs nowadays? As much as seven months of Tidal which will sound massively better 99 times out of 100 of your DAC is up to it.

If I had to be honest the main thing I like about records is the physical act of playing them. Big pictures and track indexes, faster to cue than iTunes if the record is out already. No screens! I like being able to see how far along I am on a side just by looking where the tonearm is at the moment. I’m also a huge fan of print in general so having full sized covers is nice, if it’s something from before ~1987 (when CD shifted to being the “main” format) I pretty much always prefer an original LP. Some part of the experience is always lost after the first few print runs. Yes’s Relayer on anything but LP...never. You can’t roll a doobie in the crease of a AAC file after-all let alone count the steps on all those staircases...

So I would discourage a kid from owning a cocker, but no, I wouldn’t steer a kid away from a PGP...UNLESS he actually somehow thought it would shoot better than his Empire Sniper. I would for sure try to save him from that disappointment. I would also explain to him that polished PGPs didn’t really exist back in the day and that if you buy one from a guy that way you’ll have to keep a rag in your pocket to constantly polish the thing all dang day if you want it so stay that way. (Records basically have to be brushed every time you play them, did I mention that? You also need this little brush for the needle...and also you need your cart for detail (prog) and your cart for loudness (modern pop music). You also need a really good stereo system in the first place to justify any of this, no brand-free D class amps or speakers pointed at your shoes...)

[Magmoormaster]

I see that you blow lots and lots of money on stuff. I was never in doubt of that. That’s not relevant at all. Records are just as much for poor people as you.

Well, I'll consider that point missed. It has nothing to do with rich/poor, it has to do with the fact that I went very far out of my way for better/more natural/analogue gear when I already had a good solution. The parallel to digital music (I still buy albums on iTunes, I hate streaming) and vinyl should be pretty clear.

Why is vinyl “par for course”? Exactly what do you think records are? Some kind of coolness badge? It seems like you’re saying at some point you get so much gear that you level up and need a turntable? It’s not like there is a flow chart to follow somewhere that shows how to do what and when if you’re a real dude. It’s not an obligation.

Again, you seem to be laboring under the delusion that I'm only interested in vinyl for appearances, when I said pretty damn clearly that I'm an audio snob. Meaning, I want the higher fidelity vinyl offers.

It’s not a matter of vinyl being in your future, it’s a matter of it not being in your past. It has nothing to do with being a musician or a gear whore. I’m also a musician and a gear whore. I didn’t buy a turntable because I made my first album and purchased my 20th bucket brigade. I have always had records because I’m a music fan and I’m fourtyseven! It would basically be impossible for me to not collect records in order to hear my favorite music in the original way that it came out. I have innumerable records of things that exist in no other format even now. What you’re saying is, “Hey guys, I’m thinking about getting into penny farthing bicycles and I know the first thing is I need a forge...”. It sounds...pointless. I *love* records, and I’m addicted to them. You aren’t because you don’t have any yet. This is the fork in the road. You actually see it in front of you. I don’t even know what my first record was. (Slade or Blondie, I’m pretty sure). I’m a DJ (on the radio) and I was born hooked so my library is so massive that it only makes sense to keep adding to it.

And in 2006 when I started playing paintball, it wasn't in my past. When I bought my first cocker in 2008, it wasn't in my past. When I got into pump in 2009, it wasn't in my past. Seriously. Just because someone wasn't playing paintball in the 80s, they shouldn't be allowed to enjoy a PGP, by your logic. By that rule, this forum would have a total of 5 members.

Being a long time hardcore autococker person like you are, how many noob paintballers would you steer towards owning an autococker? For me the answer would be zero because i learned from building my sniper project that even though it turned out great I for sure should never have started it. There aren’t enough parts, the original scene is dead, I was never a part of it, I can never recreate it, it’s just an expensive gun I spent a ton of time on. It’s a great gun and I love it! But if I could do it all over again I wouldn’t. Do you want to be that guy but after selling off what used to be $10,000 worth of record stuff after the market crashes, long ago realizing you basically paid $50 an album just to add a ton of surface noise on top of whatever you’re listing to? To have 1/3 the SNR of a high res download that’s half the price? To have mono bass? A format that wears out a little more every time you play it? Why are you attracted to this? This is what I’d like to actually talk about rather than “dumb”, etc. I’m trying to have a real conversation here.

I jumped into autocockers in 08, long after the original "scene." And yes, I have steered many many people to autocockers, and continue to help them build and tune them. That was before the big mech trend, too. Most of them still prefer shooting their cockers instead of modern mechs, which most of them own as well. In fairness, most of them weren't noobs, but in this analogy neither am I.

You’re being so defensive, btw. Has nobody ever called you a poseur before? It’s OK, music fans rip on each other’s scenes all the time. That’s something that you’re going to have to develop a sense of humor about if you want to stay sane. After that “limited to the album format” line...you had it coming.

I'm being defensive because you're being an asshole. You didn't want to have a conversation about why I'm interested in the format, you just wanted to be a dick. And the "you had it coming" line is proof of that. So kindly see yourself out of this conversation. You are not being constructive at all.

[SignOfZeta]

So, a couple things you don't know about me. First, I actually write and record music. I'm already a snob when it comes to audio and production, so vinyl is really just a natural evolution for me. And in the last 6 months or so, I've spent over $2k on analog guitar gear, when I had a digital setup that sounded just as good and was more versatile. So again, vinyl is just par for the course.

But moreso, if a kid in 2006 said "hey I want to get into paintball, what should I get?" You'd tell him, "don't waste your money chasing a fad?"

...So yeah, it's a dumb response.

I see that you blow lots and lots of money on stuff. I was never in doubt of that. That’s not relevant at all. Records are just as much for poor people as you.

Why is vinyl “par for course”? Exactly what do you think records are? Some kind of coolness badge? It seems like you’re saying at some point you get so much gear that you level up and need a turntable? It’s not like there is a flow chart to follow somewhere that shows how to do what and when if you’re a real dude. It’s not an obligation.

It’s not a matter of vinyl being in your future, it’s a matter of it not being in your past. It has nothing to do with being a musician or a gear whore. I’m also a musician and a gear whore. I didn’t buy a turntable because I made my first album and purchased my 20th bucket brigade. I have always had records because I’m a music fan and I’m fourtyseven! It would basically be impossible for me to not collect records in order to hear my favorite music in the original way that it came out. I have innumerable records of things that exist in no other format even now. What you’re saying is, “Hey guys, I’m thinking about getting into penny farthing bicycles and I know the first thing is I need a forge...”. It sounds...pointless. I *love* records, and I’m addicted to them. You aren’t because you don’t have any yet. This is the fork in the road. You actually see it in front of you. I don’t even know what my first record was. (Slade or Blondie, I’m pretty sure). I’m a DJ (on the radio) and I was born hooked so my library is so massive that it only makes sense to keep adding to it.

Being a long time hardcore autococker person like you are, how many noob paintballers would you steer towards owning an autococker? For me the answer would be zero because i learned from building my sniper project that even though it turned out great I for sure should never have started it. There aren’t enough parts, the original scene is dead, I was never a part of it, I can never recreate it, it’s just an expensive gun I spent a ton of time on. It’s a great gun and I love it! But if I could do it all over again I wouldn’t. Do you want to be that guy but after selling off what used to be $10,000 worth of record stuff after the market crashes, long ago realizing you basically paid $50 an album just to add a ton of surface noise on top of whatever you’re listing to? To have 1/3 the SNR of a high res download that’s half the price? To have mono bass? A format that wears out a little more every time you play it? Why are you attracted to this? This is what I’d like to actually talk about rather than “dumb”, etc. I’m trying to have a real conversation here.

You’re being so defensive, btw. Has nobody ever called you a poseur before? It’s OK, music fans rip on each other’s scenes all the time. That’s something that you’re going to have to develop a sense of humor about if you want to stay sane. After that “limited to the album format” line...you had it coming.

OK, music humor, let’s see...what do you call a drummer with no girlfriend? Give up? HOMELESS, HA!

[cellophane]

Current setup:



Did some DJing (mostly hardcore & gabber) in a previous life, wouldn't mind getting back into it but there is no scene here anymore. Records are in file crates from Office Depot / similar. One of these days I'll get some real storage for them 🙄 Speakers are off to the right-hand side.

side note- Good lord that is dusty. I'm almost embarrassed by it. Time to break out the vacuum!

[Magmoormaster]

So, a couple things you don't know about me. First, I actually write and record music. I'm already a snob when it comes to audio and production, so vinyl is really just a natural evolution for me. And in the last 6 months or so, I've spent over $2k on analog guitar gear, when I had a digital setup that sounded just as good and was more versatile. So again, vinyl is just par for the course.

But moreso, if a kid in 2006 said "hey I want to get into paintball, what should I get?" You'd tell him, "don't waste your money chasing a fad?"

...So yeah, it's a dumb response.

[SignOfZeta]

Ah ok, I misunderstood. I thought you were making the argument we make in paintball "you cooould buy a Mini, but for the same price you can buy a used Geo3." If new is the way to go, I'm perfectly happy with that.

As for diminishing returns, that's pretty much what I've heard. All sorts of nonsense upgrades that don't do anything. "But these are DIRECTIONAL cables!!" Honestly.

Most of the albums I'm looking at getting so far are limited run prog albums, all floating around $50-75. And I know that's chump change compared to the *actually* expensive stuff.


...So because I'm "responding to a fad" I shouldn't explore new hobbies? That's really freakin dumb.

I don’t think it’s dumb at all. Doing something only because it’s popular never pans out. Getting a Chicago Bulls tattoo, for example. Real cool for like two years and then it’s just sad reminder of how small your world once was. Eventually it won’t be popular anymore and your interest will die with everyone else’s. This vinyl comeback thing has got two years max left on it...but it’s a 70 year old format that will easily outlive us all. Where are you in that universe and is it worth being there at all?

You know about comic books, right? Its 1992 right now, by that measure. You’re that guy who parks his conspicuously non-POS car at the comic shop and goes in, buys three of everything and sits on it until it eventually gets basement wet on it and it throws it out.

If you think I’m trying to talk you out of this because in fact I want all the LE Dream Theater 12”s and Iron Maiden box sets...that’s actually about half true. The other half is me trying to talk you out of filling your garage with Beanie Babies. You are TOTALLY outside this world looking in. It’s a unique opportunity to just not go in at all.

Ask your girlfriend if what I’m saying makes any sense.

[cellophane]

And be prepared to be shocked by the price of some records you want, its unavoidable haha

Discogs publishes the most expensive items sold every month. It is insane, especially considering how many of them are 45's

[Magmoormaster]

I was saying to avoid used and buy a new table from a solid company(uturn), honestly when you're starting out anything is good as long as it works and doesn't damage your records. I cant recommend a preamp but I remember there being some pretty good 30-50 dollar options from Amazon, and you already have speakers.

This is a hobby where the point of diminished returns is pretty close to the buy in point, and some people spend a fortune on shit that I honestly can't hear a difference in and 2 aint gonna make my power violence records sound any better.

And be prepared to be shocked by the price of some records you want, its unavoidable haha

Ah ok, I misunderstood. I thought you were making the argument we make in paintball "you cooould buy a Mini, but for the same price you can buy a used Geo3." If new is the way to go, I'm perfectly happy with that.

As for diminishing returns, that's pretty much what I've heard. All sorts of nonsense upgrades that don't do anything. "But these are DIRECTIONAL cables!!" Honestly.

Most of the albums I'm looking at getting so far are limited run prog albums, all floating around $50-75. And I know that's chump change compared to the *actually* expensive stuff.

Doesn’t like albums...doesn’t know about singles...hasn’t wasted any money yet...I recommend you just not do this and stick with the streaming.

If you’re into old prog or Motown or Rainbow or Yellow Magic Orchestra or hiphop or house or...disaster movie soundtracks or whatever, something that had a natural techno-cultural anchor point to records and you already had an amp your uncle gave you, or your brother was a DJ in the 90s, etc, that’s one thing but it sounds like you’re just responding to a fad and that would be a waste of money.

FWIW My opinion is old gear is massively better than new stuff, digital amps blow, and my favorite LP is probably Trespass by Genesis or The Yes Album.

...So because I'm "responding to a fad" I shouldn't explore new hobbies? That's really freakin dumb.

[SignOfZeta]

I didn’t know about how great he was until my girlfriend forced me to listen to him. Now I buy her his 180g LPs so that I can listen to them.

[cellophane]

Doesn’t like albums...

If you’re into old prog or Motown...

I legitimately had no clue just how awesome Stevie Wonder is until I got some albums and just put them on to listen to, never mind the insane number of his songs that have been sampled elsewhere and trying to figure out where I've heard it before (which is honestly half of the fun for me.) I always appreciated his body of work, but holy crap does he have some amazing songs that aren't the 5 you hear on the radio.

[SignOfZeta]

The unfortunate thing about vinyl is that it's limited strictly to the album format.

Doesn’t like albums...doesn’t know about singles...hasn’t wasted any money yet...I recommend you just not do this and stick with the streaming.

If you’re into old prog or Motown or Rainbow or Yellow Magic Orchestra or hiphop or house or...disaster movie soundtracks or whatever, something that had a natural techno-cultural anchor point to records and you already had an amp your uncle gave you, or your brother was a DJ in the 90s, etc, that’s one thing but it sounds like you’re just responding to a fad and that would be a waste of money.

FWIW My opinion is old gear is massively better than new stuff, digital amps blow, and my favorite LP is probably Trespass by Genesis or The Yes Album.

[cellophane]

The unfortunate thing about vinyl is that it's limited strictly to the album format. I listen to a fairly diverse range of music, but the only albums I like from start to finish are death metal albums haha.

Anyway, I'd love to see other's setups and vinyl collections.

If you have the spare change you can't go wrong with the Technics 1200 series. The old ones can be hard to find (and expensive to fix) but they are tanks. A 30 second glance at eBay has pricing in the $400-$500 range. The new model looks pretty sweet but I've not seen one in person- it is also not cheap. They will need a preamp of some sort. There are small preamps available, a small 2-channel mixer would work, or you could get a full-on amplifier.

As for the album format- I find that the limitation is actually a benefit quite often. I have loads of records that I buy because of one or two songs, but by listening to the whole album you will find songs and even whole albums that you end up really liking that would normally have just been skipped. It also allows for themes to be explored by the artists. Albums like Janelle Monae's The Chase Suite or Green Day's American Idiot are amazing and tell a story as you go through the entire thing.

I'll try and get some pictures later- but I currently have 2x SL1200 M3D's, a Denon DN-X1500 4-channel mixer and a set of Mackie CR5-XBT 5 inch Monitors, and about 13 crates of records; here's what I've cataloged on Discogs so far. I've been avoiding going through a lot of the more mainstream releases because they suck to catalog. Days Of Future Passed, for instance, has 100 different releases on vinyl and the differences between them frequently come down to minutiae like which plant it is pressed at. Huge pain in the ass to figure out.