Snipers on 12 grams / on CO2 Discussion

[Snowking63]

About 71*

[KMDPB]

Pretty good results. What was the temp outside?

[Chuck E Ducky]

My SCJ6 was basic ally set it and forget it. I just put the ICD stock in the ASA and I get 30ish if it’s hot out.

[Chuck E Ducky]

12g threw the Lazarus valve cool!

[Chuck E Ducky]

If you have big temp fluctuations or play in extreme weather conditions super hot or super cold a reg can help. I found in the NE a reg is not necessary on a Phantom it’s just one more thing to stop working on a bullet proof setup. However I do own a few phantoms that are regulated and they perform great. But it takes a lil more tuning to get them just right. It’s not like you can just drop in silver springs and call it a day with a regulated phantom unless the reg is just set wide open not doing anything.

[Snowking63]

Chuck E Ducky I totally forgot that my ICD changer didn't even come with the seal when I bought it new so I was using a different bucket changer which was also having trouble sealing. I contacted ICD and they were kind enough to send me 3 free valve seals. Amazing customer service. After installing the new seal I was still having leaking and puncture problems but I read some of your old forums talking about how important it is for the head to be tight to the body. It's almost embarrassing how many 12 grams I went through but I was able to get it to seal properly.

Anyway, here's an update on my testing. After correcting my 12 gram leaks, air kept passing through the valve even with the hammer back and it didn't matter how much I adjusted the reg pressure. So I took the valve out and here's what I found. The seal that centers the valve pin in the inlet housing wasn't seated correctly which jammed the valve pin in the open position. Maybe this was from cranking the reg pressure up and it distorted the seal? Or did I find a downside to the design?




I reseated and reinstalled it. I set my reg pressure to 170psi but I used my hpa tank which is outputting around 400psi so the reg output with a 12 gram should be lower. I'll build an inline pressure tester here soon to find out what the exact pressure is but the idea was to get it to shoot in the ballpark before I fine tuned it all. Here are some numbers for you guys.

This is using:
ICD T-stock lever changer screwed into a duckbill, macroline into inline PPS stabalizer screwed into the VASA
Lightest hammer srping in I.D. spring kit, IVG flush
Defy paint (old and not very consistent in size but still round and brittle)
.680 pwr insert in a crbn pwr nano barrel
crossman 12 grams

1. 0 (chronograph didn't register)
2. 0 (chronograph didn't register)
3. 241
4. 283
5. 250 (increased reg pressure)
6. 250
7. 258 (increased reg pressure)
8. 261
9. 261 (increased reg pressure)
10. 265
11. 256 (adjusted IVG a few turns in)
12. 274
13. 259
14. 254
15. 270
16. 263
17. 265 (increased reg pressure)
18. 266
19. 264
20. 265
21. 258
22. 251
23. 256
24. 257 (increased reg pressure)
25. 271
26. 271
27. 267
28. 273
29. 279
30. 274
31. 272
32. 279
33. 252
34. 265
35. 255
36. 215
37. 183
38. 106
39. ---

As I said, these readings were just to get in the velocity ballpark so a lot of adjusting was needed. I'll blame the big velocity swings on inconsistent paint. Even though the paint is matched to a .680 insert I still get some that roll through. I'm currently letting some nail polish dry in the insert to prevent any breach rolling.

The first few shots were very interesting. The first two didn't register but it looked like it shot around 250ish then it started to ramp up from there with no adjustments on my end.

As a first test though 35-36 usable shots isn't too bad but not impressive. But considering I'm using the lightest hammer spring I have, making it a super light and buttery pump stroke it feels like a good shooter. The valve sounds like it closes pretty damn fast, and it makes for a quiet shot.
The next thing I want to do is build an inline reg tester to see exactly what my pressure is with 12 grams. Maybe I can get away with running even lower pressure with a slightly heavier spring. From there I plan to use test different reg pressures/springs and then different expansion chambers before and after the reg.

[Chuck E Ducky]

You can get Seals for the ICD right through them. I just emailed them. Have you tried flipping it?

[Snowking63]

Well it's always something. I installed the Laz valve in the recently milled 2k2 along with the lightest hammer spring in the Inception master spring kit, threw in a 12ie and found out I need a new pierce pin face seal for my ICD changer. Anyone know where I can find these seals? I was able to adjust my reg a little before my 12gram was spent. Something I noticed... This Laz valve doesn't like to seal with low pressure. I had the reg backed out a good amount before airing up and air was blowing through the valve even with the hammer back. It looked like it sealed as I adjusted it over 80psi or so. I couldn't play with it much because of my leak but I was getting 250fps with my reg at 190psi with the IVG flush. It also sounded pretty different too but it could be my new barrel.

I'd love to post an in-depth video testing this valve with different reg pressures and volume chambers but I need to find a seal for this. Anyone?

[Snowking63]

Interesting! But haven't palmers stabs been used on phantoms running on 12 grams with good success? I've never ran a reg on my phantom so I don't have experience first hand. Would a CART reg perform better?

I picked up my milled bodies and new Laz valves yesterday but I left all my parts at a buddies house and of course he isn't getting back to me. I was reaaally hoping I could at least start the testing this weekend.

[Socalpumpballer]

As far as high pressure direct 12 grams on a sniper. it isnt the right platform. Palmer figured this out with Sheridans in general you can only get them so far before it’s limited to what you can fit in them. That’s why all of his custom scratch built pumps don’t use standard Sheridan specs lower tubes.
The lower internals need to be balanced and there needs to be more room for the hammer to accelerate without preloading the valve so the valve doesn’t increase in dwell as the pressure drops as well as allowing you to change 12 grams without cocking the hammer first.

In stubborn fashion Im still going to try tinker and make it happen though 🙃

Standard Palmers regs can’t run at super low pressures that you’ll probably need for the Lazarus and they don’t function very well with a 12 grams pressure curve. I had standard female and sideline refs and They were always the fatal flaw in 12 gram testing because the regs seemed to spike at the tail end of the pressure drop, even with the low pressure internals kit I got from palmers with never functioned well on anything other than constant air. The CP mini reg has probably had the best performance on 12 grams, but my older ccm reg works fine with them

[Snowking63]

On the old MCB I posted a full in depth writeup about my unregged pre2k stock class build. I used a PPS HP valve and a bucket changer directly into the VASA. I got my springs dialed in pretty good and from what I recall I got about 33 good shots out of it. I'll be honest though I felt like it was the wrong platform. Being unregged it was a giant pain to set up correctly and even then I was never happy with how inconsistent it was.

But I do have some exciting news. Yesterday I dropped off a couple bodies to be milled for 11/16 valves, one being a 2k2 full body that I'll be using for a regulated 12 gram setup. And yes, the 11/16 valve I'll be using is the new Dye Lazarus valve. I think I'll be the first one to test this valve on 12 grams and I plan on messing with different volume chambers so if anyone wants to see something specific let me know. I just rebuilt a female PPS stabilizer for this that will run directly in front of an ICD lever changer. I also have an inline PPS stab and a bucket changer so I can test different configurations. The Lazarus valve should allow it to run on pretty low pressure but still allow the valve to quickly close. And with the low chamber pressure I should be able to use a softer hammer spring which will allow a super light pump stroke. I should have the body back by next week. Once I have it I'll get the reg sweetspotted and start posting results on here. Any specific configurations you guys would like to see?

Here's a pic of my old pre2k unregged sniper and one of the regged 2k2 that I'll be using for testing.

[ketzer7]

Hi Mike. I remember you telling me the trick with your reg at Slim's. I may have accidentally figured out what the problem was in my case.

In the reg on this particular T2, I had swapped out the pin o-ring (basically the one that acts as the reg seat), for a polyurethane 006-N90 instead of the stock Buna-N 006-N90 based on the recommendation of Tim Firpo (PaintballTek) in a video he did on rebuilding CCM regs. His claim was that the poly o-ring was better for this application than the stock one.

Interestingly, I went back to messing around with this reg again, and happened to put it on an HPA tank that was outputting ~700-750 PSI. At first the CCM reg seemed fine while testing its output, but it suddenly started creeping and then shot up to like 600+ output. Basically not regulating at all. When I took the reg apart, I found that the poly o-ring was partially sucked down into the opening on the poppet nut. Exactly like what I was seeing at Slim's when I was having trouble getting this to work.

I tried swapping out the reg internals with an entirely new set, but still with the poly o-ring on the reg pin - same result, output shot up and o-ring getting sucked down into the nut after a couple of cycles.

As a last troubleshooting attempt, I put the stock Buna-N one back in and tried again on the same tank output pressure. Lo and behold, no issues staying consistent at 300 psi output.

For shits and grins, I took the ICD lever changer stock I got recently and hooked it up to try testing the output of the CCM reg to see what would happen. Went through 3 12 grams testing and no issues staying at consistent 300 psi output.

Last step, I put the ICD stock and reg back on the gun and hooked it all up to test it. Put a 12 gram in, and proceeded to be able to fire the gun many times without any issues. Put a second 12 gram in, and tested it again, and I counted ~30 full power shots and then like the next two were basically nothing, and then the 12 gram was completely spent.

There's a stock class day coming up at OSG soon and I'm going to give this gun another try on 12 grams there. Thanks again for the stock feed!

[Chuck E Ducky]

Something to consider if you are using a CCM mini reg you won’t get it to run on 12g. They choke on anything over 450psi input pressure.

[Stockclass Heroes]

I would love to know what the secret is to getting 12 grams to work on a Sniper-based gun.

At Slim's I spent a bunch of time messing around trying to get my new T2 from CCM working on 12 grams. I could never get it to shoot with any sort of decent velocity at all. It would seem to start out with the first shot or two being full power, and then it would rapidly taper off to the point it couldn't even launch a ball out of the barrel. And no the 12 gram wasn't empty. If I dumped it, there was plenty of gas left in it. I'm talking it would taper off in like 5-6 shots. Other times, it would never get above like 150 fps no matter how I adjusted the reg pressure or main spring.

The CCM reg the gun came with didn't seem to like CO2 at all. One time it vented off through the bottom, two other times, it essentially stopped flowing entirely. Both times, when I took the reg apart to find out why it had stopped, the reg seat o-ring had been partially sucked down into the poppet nut, almost like the pressure was too high? All I can say is that I had already pre-adjusted the reg at home to output 300 psi on HPA, and didn't adjust it at all when switching it over to 12 gram, but it just seemed to be all over the place.

Thinking maybe the problems were being caused by the reg, I switched the gun over to using a Sidewinder I had laying around. Similarly, I pre-adjusted it to 300 psi output, and then didn't touch it after putting it on 12 gram. Didn't really get any different results. Could never achieve any decent velocity out of the gun. I wouldn't think it would.be a problem, but it almost seemed like the gun was sucking liquid in, but I have no idea.

Maybe I am just a moron and doing something wrong, but I gave up. If someone has some tips to try, I'd be happy to try it again because it was really frustrating knowing that folks were using their Sniper-based guns just fine on 12 grams.

So you're not a moron by any means . I run a T2F ( i was also the one selling the carbon fiber feeds for the T2's) 😉😉.
What i need to do for running 12g on my stock ccm is dial the reg one full turn in from my HP setting . Yes this increases the pressure in the valve it also decreases the dwell of the valve by putting more pressure on it. I don't know why it works but it does .

As for the reg issue : the o ring unseating could be soft o rings and needs harder versions, as for the sidewinder try increasing the pressure .

My IVG is set to about 1.5-2 turns in from flush.

Btw i get exactly 32 shots on my ccm running it stockclass


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[grd]

sweetspotting is important for mechanical valved guns. That said IMO you should be sprung to sweetspot under 300 psi.