we are no long allowed to learn or teach about this planet

[chrislognshot]

[Cdn_Cuda]

Oh, this will be the butt of a few jokes… . Michaelangelo’s David is considered as porn in this state too…

[chrislognshot]

some how Michaelangelo’s David gets around facebook code of conduct too.

[XEMON]

I'm saying let's ban teachers and schools ... They only teach kids how to think ... This is too dangerous and threatening to our ways ...

[DocsMachine]

They only teach kids how to think ...

-Wrong. Today's teachers only teach kinds what to think, not how to think.

And that's not just being flippant; most teachers simply train- not teach- the kids to regurgitate the answers on the tests. That's it, period, full stop. Good test scores are the one and only metric for evaluating a school.

They don't have the time- and in all too many cases, the skill- to teach the kind how to think. How to actually reason and analyze and form their own conclusions. That takes time, personal interaction from the teacher, and care, effort and dedication from both the teacher and the student.

And everyone here remembers a teacher that "phoned it in", was basically just there to collect a paycheck, couldn't care less if the kids actually learned or not. Mine was a math teacher, who had all the personal engagement of a fire hydrant. Thing is, with school crowding, low teacher pay, budget shortfalls, and more and more rules restricting what a teacher can and can't do, there's far more of those kinds of instructors than back when most of us were still in school.

(Oh, and the Uranus thing, in case you didn't know, is a joke meme. )

Doc.

[bellicose]

-Wrong. Today's teachers only teach kinds what to think, not how to think.

As a professional who has worked in the industry for 17 years, I'm going to disagree with you on that point. Do some? Absolutely. Do most? No.

[DocsMachine]

As someone whose mother was a teacher her entire life, and fought with numerous school boards over what should and shouldn't be taught, and dealt with constantly growing class sizes as well as greater and greater restrictions in how they were allowed to teach or deal with the children, I can say the problem is a lot more widespread than you might think.

There's three kinds of teachers these days- the caring, dedicated educators that want to see the kids grow and succeed (by far the smallest of the three fractions) the "activist" teacher that's dedicated to teaching the kids their specific worldview and politics, (the middle-sized fraction) and the biggest group, those only there for a paycheck. The ones that don't have or no longer care to spend the time individually helping the students.

There's certainly some overlap between all three, but sheer burnout from fighting budget shrinkage, growing class sizes, and politically-bent school boards, inevitably makes the third group by far the largest of the three.

Doc.

[freedom]

I teach in a small school. i would absolutely NOT show a penis to 6th grade students. If you did and you lost your job, i'd say you didn't think it through.
the biggest problem for me is "owners" of children. i can't call them parents, since there isn't any parenting.
i don't know what anyone here did in the 5th grade, but a large portion of the 5th graders in my district have unfettered internet access at home and watch porn.
this statement about porn STARTS at the 5th grade and continues upward through the grades. the verbiage used in porn is also used by the students in school.
see my previous sentence about parenting.

[lhamilton1807]

DocsMachine I’ve not seen distinct groups/kinds of people anywhere in life. It’s easy to make a judgement until actually speaking with someone and then their situation isn’t quite as clear cut as once thought.

I taught Jr High for 6 years and burned out, then quit the education profession altogether. Most teachers I worked with were caring professionals who entered the field because they wanted to help kids learn and grow. I was one of them, and still love the idea of teaching and coaching, but I won’t do it in a typical classroom anymore. I agree that there are some - like any profession - that are just there to get a paycheck. My experience was that was a small minority.

On the whole I see that the US doesn’t value education like many other countries do. I also taught in Moscow, Russia and boy do they know their stuff. History, math, music, science, you name it. Heck some of my adult students knew words I didn’t, and I’m a native speaker. I had a man who was two decades my senior arrive late to class, stop at the door, and ask permission to enter. As a young man in his early 20s, that blew me away. If education isn’t valued, those whose job it is to educate won’t be valued, and the time spent in school and at home learning won’t be valued. Working to get a group of kids with that cultural perspective is incredibly difficult. It’s an uphill battle all week, and then they’re home for the weekend and you start all over again on Monday.

We homeschool because we decided we’d rather have kids that value learning than have the extra cash. It’s been worth the sacrifice if a second income.

[bellicose]

We need to meet up around a campfire at supergame this year. I'd like to hear some stories about your experiences.

[lhamilton1807]

I’m local and am not camping, but let’s connect Friday and chat. I’d love to swap stories.

[bellicose]

Education is one of those professions where everyone thinks they know all about it, because they went to school and experienced it; kind of like fast food. Just about all of us have been to a fast food place, and think we know what it takes and could run things with little to no problem. Probably do it better than the kids working behind the counter, surely. But if you have worked in fast food, you know that these people really have no clue.

Doc, I value your opinion, and love to read your thoughts when you post here, but this is my circus, my monkeys. You know someone who worked in education, right, we all do. My mother taught as well. So did my mother-in-law. And aunts, uncles, cousins, etc. Is your mother still in education? Education is constantly evolving. What we were taught in grad school, almost a score ago now, no longer applies. Hell, the game has changed so much in the past 3 years alone. Many who can't keep up have retired or quit and we have a mass shortage teachers in the industry. I have been slogging through the trenches of high school CTE classes for 17 years, while my wife has been on the front lines, teaching elementary for 18. While in the same field, we work in different worlds. I cannot begin to comprehend what she does, and she cannot do the same in return.

As someone whose mother was a teacher her entire life, and fought with numerous school boards over what should and shouldn't be taught, and dealt with constantly growing class sizes as well as greater and greater restrictions in how they were allowed to teach or deal with the children, I can say the problem is a lot more widespread than you might think.

I'm totally with you there. School boards are hell to deal with at the best of times. Many sabotage teachers on purpose. The problem with school boards, community, government, and politics isn't widespread, it's par for the course. I have great leeway with what I teach, but my wife is in the constant battle as elementary. Elementary school teachers don't get a budget around here. Isn't that insane? Remember back in grade school when you'd do some little craft with colored paper for holidays? Your teacher had to buy those supplies with their own money.

There's three kinds of teachers these days- the caring, dedicated educators that want to see the kids grow and succeed (by far the smallest of the three fractions) the "activist" teacher that's dedicated to teaching the kids their specific worldview and politics, (the middle-sized fraction) and the biggest group, those only there for a paycheck. The ones that don't have or no longer care to spend the time individually helping the students.

Here is where I disagree. Very few are here for the paycheck, at least in my state. In the before times (pre-covid), you had to have a Masters degree within the first 5 years of teaching. Most places would not even hire you without one to begin with. We pay a lot of money to be a teacher (just finished paying off my $100k in loans last year, and my wife's $100k this year). We make very little in return. Of the 5 people in my department, 4 have standing invitations from business in the area for jobs that make $100,000 to $150,000, and here they are teaching for less than $50k. Those in it for a paycheck have retired 15 years ago. Those in it right now won't even be able to retire (again, this is state specific, I can't comment on retirement for other states).

Your "activist teachers" do exist, but only in communities that want them. I teach in a rural conservative logging town. If you try to push those kids toward toward any politics, you will be out of the job. Propaganda of any kind is just opening yourself up to a lawsuit. You would have to be supported by your board and community.

I have attended conferences across the country, done unpaid trainings with other teachers from every state and territory of the US, been a part of professional learning communities that encompass thousands of educators. I am on the computer science consulting group for the state of Oregon(unpaid). I can without a doubt, tell you that the vast majority are not in it for the money (what money?), not in it to pervert students to fulfill some political desire. We put in thousands of unpaid hours, dedicate a massive amount of time and energy in it for one purpose: to help kids. It is something we in the industry refer to as the "ah-ha" moment. That's how we get our kicks; to see that lightbulb go on, and the look of discovery and accomplishment that children get.

Now, don't get me wrong here, painting everything Pollyannic. As with any industry, there are bad eggs. There are those who are incompetent, untrained, and just there to coach sports. I know those people. I work with them, and unfortunately, was on the hiring committee that hired one of them (still kick myself every time one of my students complain about him). They exist, but they are not the majority. They do stick out in your memory though. I cannot remember the majority of teachers I have had, but I know they helped me become a thinker and problem solver. I can remember all the bad ones, through (Mr. Garrison, you're a bastard). It is an uphill battle every day against parents (I hate talking to parents over the phone so much, it's my #2 hate for the job), against communities that don't support their own kids, and against politics that interfere and hinder us doing our jobs.

[lhamilton1807]

I’ve got respect for your for sticking it out. I know it’s only gotten tougher since I left the teaching field, so hats off to you, your wife, and all those who are in it for the kids. The world would be a much darker place without teachers still fighting for the next generation.

[XEMON]

My wife has been a teacher for over 20 years (here in Cali) and what you wrote is exactly what she share with me on a regular basis. That "ha-ha" moment makes it up for all the other BS she deals with ...
I always scour second hand stores and flea market for calculator and school supplies for her classroom. I regularly print and make parts for the classroom. All out of pocket.

[minigscanada]

Scientist say there was a civilisation overthere but is was wiped off the surface.

[Fossilhead]

Klingons live on the rings around it though.

[FullContactUSA]

I've spent a decent amount of time in an east coast state, my wife was a teacher for 10 years and we have a bunch of friends still, that are teachers. Too many of them are engaged in teaching kids "what" to think. Maybe they can't help it. But so many wear their politics on their sleeve and actively push their world views everyday. This must not be frowned upon, because they have massive conferences every year, a very large union, and both are huge political donors. This thread started as an April fools joke (I think) but it's really no laughing matter.

[minigscanada]

It is a big competitor of my april fool thread at the moment and only lead by a few point, well done chrislognshot turning this to a politcal debate was genius move

[bellicose]

Which is ironic because April Fools Day is my absolute favorite day to teach. I very carefully tape paper fish to the backs of all my students each period in the French tradition. The shenanigans spread throughout the school, and paper fish get everywhere.

[FullContactUSA]

Minigscanada if you wrote the post about the pneumec cocker frame it had me going. I was all "ooooh look at that, maybe I need one; wait, wait a sec check the date it's April 1st fck that guy!" It's my one fault.

[minigscanada]

"ooooh look at that,..

You had a laugh there, I be f that guy too I know

[Refoogee]

The crusade against public education began once segregation ended. A large part of the population in this country wanted their segregated school zones back, including politicians, and were adamant about undermining the public education system. They didn't get their segregation back, the white American public didn't all jump onto private schools, and the United States plummeted in education standards.

Another cultural shift that is still causing damage is the embracing of an extremely individualized social structure, a leftover from the Cold War culture war. Margaret Thatcher is famous for saying that "There is no such thing (as society)! There are individual men, and women, and there are families, and no government can do anything except through people, and people look to themselves first." In the U.S, Reagan era politics, policies, and public attitude, fell into that line as well.

The two policy changes that are a real turning point in how schools operate are "No Child Left Behind" and "Zero Tolerance". No Child Left Behind is just horrendously shallow, it doesn't address any of the real problems. We don't teach logical thinking skills, and instead teach a form of flow chart learning. You don't teach the subject, you teach for the standardized testing. The test results determined your schools funding, low test scores lose funding ( because that makes sense lol). When you teach in that sort of binary standards, you lose so much of what learning is. You lose nuance, you lose exploration, you lose learning how to solve problems through internal logic. What you do, do, is instill a fear of failure. You failed, you didn't pass the knowledge check, and that makes you stupid.

The other problem relating to culture is Zero Tolerance. Zero Tolerance is purely related back to how litigious the individualist American society is. "My little Billy could never do anything wrong, that other kid he beat up must have been an instigator". This attitude extends to all aspects of public education. "I don't like that you're teaching this, I don't like Billy's grades, etc."
And if Billy isn't getting it, it's not necessarily his fault either, since again, we "teach" as a knowledge check, and not as a critical thinking platform.

[DocsMachine]

I’ve not seen distinct groups/kinds of people anywhere in life. It’s easy to make a judgement until actually speaking with someone and then their situation isn’t quite as clear cut as once thought.

-I'll gladly grant that the reality is nowhere near as "black and white" as I might have implied, but I'll also grant that it's not as sunshine and roses as it's commonly made out to be.

I taught Jr High for 6 years and burned out,[...]

Many who can't keep up have retired or quit and we have a mass shortage teachers in the industry.

-My points, exactly.

Look, at no time did I say "all teachers are just in it for the paycheck", but at the same time, not all teachers- maybe not even the largest percentage of them- are as caring and dedicated as many would like to believe.

Remember back in grade school when you'd do some little craft with colored paper for holidays? Your teacher had to buy those supplies with their own money.

-Yep. My mom spent thousands of her own money on materials for the kids, including going through secondhand stores for fabric scraps. (Most will slice up unwearable clothes, and sell them in small 'bales'- auto shops will buy them as rags. A bale was literally cheaper than a stack of construction paper.)

Here is where I disagree. Very few are here for the paycheck, at least in my state.

-I will gladly grant that it varies considerably from place to place, and never meant to imply otherwise. Inner-city Chicago is a very different situation from, say, Vernal, Utah, or Colby, Kansas. My mom taught in Alaska's biggest city (which for many of you, I'll admit, isn't saying much ) and dealt with everything I've mentioned and more.

Your "activist teachers" do exist, but only in communities that want them.

-Not sure I can agree with the "who want them" part, but I'll also readily admit I pay very little attention to that sort of news. I'm just going by the well-publicized "drag queen storytimes", as well as local friends with kids (I don't have any- that I know of ) who have been complaining of their kids- as young as eight- being taught about gender transitioning and the like.

NOT an expert, of course, but I do know that's a well-known tactic; teach the kids while they're young and impressionable, and it's unlikely they'll escape that indoctrination later.

No Child Left Behind is just horrendously shallow, it doesn't address any of the real problems.

-I was given to understand that NCLB was a colossal failure, with the general effect of slowing the entire class down to the rate of the worst student.

And I'm here to tell you that's not a good thing. I was (I like to think ) one of the bright students, and in certain classes, it bored me to tears how slow we were going. (Then again, if I were in school today, I'd probably medicated up to my eyeballs for ADD, ADHD, OCD and probably BBQ. )

Doc.

[bellicose]

I can see it in thw faster learner kids faces when we are going too slow. NCLB was a nightmare. I'm very thankful that I teach elective classes, and the standards i have to hit are very different than other subjects.