.690 nelson paint - we want it, we can get it we just have to work together ...

[Mechstar]

I appreciate you taking this on. I hope it works out.
I would be in for 4 cases, to get a stockpile in case this becomes a one and done type of thing….
Going forward, about 4 cases a year if this becomes sustainable and the quality is good. .688-.692 would be the range to go for probably, although I personally would like at the upper end of that range.

Some of my enthusiasm hinges on the size and condition of the Nelson Anarchy I am ordering.

As others have said, ROUND consistently sized paint is more important to me than bore size, so large bore egg shaped paint will lose my interest fast, but If there is a CHANCE of getting ROUND and LARGE….then YES! I am willing to put my money on the line to find out. I would be open to some kind of deposit to get my dibs in, preferably AFTER I see a valid purchase order in with Nelson, but to cover your ass on such a large purchase, I agree you should get some money up front from the interested. It shows commitment. A $50 pre-order deposit on an $80 case of paint is probably a bit steep. If a Kickstarter or third party can act as escrow and hold the funds until the balls have been run and the final invoice is due, it might convince the more “pre-order” skittish to jump on board.
You will have to clear it with the Mods before starting any kind of a pre-order thread. Even the most well intended pre-orders (often) go awry.

[Drcemento]

Thanks everyone for your input so far - all super helpful.

• summing it up, I see solid verbal interest in 17 cases.
• outside MCB I've got 10 more
• I've reached out to a couple fields here in North bay and there is enough interest that it could lead to a longer term solution to our paint woes

I was able to talk with Nelson Paints sales rep for awhile today and get a the backstory on whats happened the last 10 or so years, because I think many people will agree, Nelson took a turn for the worse at some point, and kinda fell off the map. according to him:

• they did shoot themselves in the foot this was due to bad management with a huge emphasis on overseas sales and custom orders and none on quality or servicing the US market - if I heard right even to the point of no longer producing anarchy - turning allot of customers off. this eventually caught up to them (ie: losing money ) and led to allot of internal changes about 3 years ago
• apparently allot of the changes came about because of allot of anger over discontinuing anarchy.
• the new sales rep has been brought on to pick up the pieces for 2 years now and re-establish the domestic market and Nelsons reputation
• they have reduced their line to 2 types of paint from 6 - anarchy and precision
• They have really put the emphasis back on quality to get back to where they were

its all well and good coming from a salesman, but I figure if he took the kind of time he did to walk me through it for a measly 2 pallets they really are trying to get things back on line, and it made me feel allot better about making the order from them, along with some great feedback here on MCB from fields that sell Nelson paint

To that end they are saying they stand behind their product 100%. he is crediting me for the case that I purchased last week before I got this hair up my ass, and that anarchy is the best paint they can make, and if thats what we spec in a .690, then that's what we'll get, and if we don't for some reason they will fix it.

he walked me through their QC process once the paint comes off the dryer which includes 4 steps:

#1 Shell hardness
#2 Ball diameter, measured at 3 points
#3 drop test
#4 shoot test, which I though was interesting they actually run them through a fixed gun and measure how many hit a target at X feet (what diameter bore was that barrel 😁)

he was driving but said he'd follow up monday with the specifics for each test for each grade of paint and put me in touch with the production manager If I wanted - we can also review the the QC sheets for our specific batch prior to shipping.

he said they have records of every batch of everything they have ever made going back to forever, and hes going to do some digging to see what a production spec for 1995 was - the size thing was news to him and he was pretty curious about it

Guess allots riding on that case they sent me!

very exciting, keep the comments coming and tell your buddies!
very pumped to make this happen.

[SETHZILLA!]

Put me down for 2 cases by myself, if more guys are interested from my team I'll respond here and PM as well.

Looking forward to your report on the case you have coming!

Sent from my SM-G970U1 using Tapatalk

[scottieb]

I'd be in for a couple of cases. Fill and shell color do not matter to me. It would be nice to use some older barrels again.

[RedLeaderSB]

Black shell?

[un2xs]

Yes. And neon green fill.

Personally, I had no problems following my shots. Its the guy on the other end I want to have problems spotting the origination spot.

Our field owner got some in to try... we all liked it in his woodsball field. After that he always had some on hand until it was no longer made.

Different strokes, I guess.

[DocsMachine]

I don't know why anyone would want Gator Black again. Especially for a pumper or stock class. On anything but the brightest of sunny days and the most open of fields, it's nearly impossible to see fly.

We had a case of the original stuff, years ago, back when a case lasted a small group for a whole weekend. Everyone hated it. You had no idea where your shot went.

There's a reason paint has a bright shell these days.

Doc.

[Grendel]

I always like the Cherry Red with green fill from R.P. Scherer. IIRC the were called Black Cherry? They were relatively easy for the shooter to follow in flight and broke florescent green but were much harder to see by others

[MrBarraclough]

As I commented to Drcemento higher up the thread, Gator Black was kind of fun on a shady field if you mixed a little bright yellow RPS into your hopper. It gave you the occasional tracer round.

And the bronze shell of Nelson Ranger seems to be a nice compromise. Not too hard to see from the shooter's perspective looking along the flight path, even in the shade, but in the woods it is very hard to see in flight by anyone who isn't looking pretty close to parallel to the flight path.

[BigBalla23]

Got a group here up for 3-5 cases.

[fullofpaint]

I don't know why anyone would want Gator Black again.

Same haha. Gimme All-star or Marbs with that crazy flourescent bright shell for tracking my balls.

I'd be down for two cases to at least check it out.

[MrBarraclough]

Man do I miss the old magenta/gold shelled Marbelizer from the late 90s.

[Chuck E Ducky]

I would take two cases.

[Drcemento]

That's verbal interest in 43 cases!

that case of anarchy cant get here fast enough. I have 0 patience.

I don't want to start breaking any rules here.

going to PM the Mods and talk about best way to move forward when it comes to posting about an official pre-order thread to get this off the ground. anybody have experience with this? was thinking a Squarespace commerce page might be the best but will have to look into their rules relating to pre-orders. kickstarter?

[iamthelazerviking]

I'm impressed with this salesperson's responsiveness and the details they are sharing. Maybe Nelson alone will save paintball by actually focusing on making quality paint. It would certainly convert hoards of players. There's only a couple places near me that are BYOP, and they're outlaw so not sure if it's worth it at the moment. But hopefully Nelson becomes popular enough for fields to start stocking.

[Chuck E Ducky]

Fields are having a hard time getting quality paint and I’m sure with the container ships sitting off the coast it’s not going to get better anytime soon. I would love to see good paint hit the market especially Paint made in the US. Even if it was more expensive in the end. Maybe people will start shooting less of it if it’s more expensive and better quality.

[Handy]

I'd be interested in 2-4 cases of high quality paint. If it proved to be good our fields here are pretty much all BYOP, so I'm sure I could get a few more interested parties.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

[Drcemento]

After an excruciating week of watching fedex meander around california with my paint I finally got the case of Anarchy!
I'll get into details about how i tested this later - I can get long winded.
In short - I'd consider it good paint. not blow my mind better but very very similar if not slightly better than Valken Graffiti which I also have a case of and consider it to be the highest quality paint i can get right now (without knowing nelson was an option ) I have gone to Graffiti since I stopped being able to get GAP many years ago, I almost always regret buying anything else.

that said:
what is great paint?
thats where things get murky.
I've been playing paintball on and off since 1994 or 1995
I have great memories of nelson paint but no quantifiable data to back that up - i wish like hell I did now.

to that end this is how I tested the 3 paints i have on hand to start to quantify things - Anarchy, Nelson and Proshar
I measured the diameter of 20 balls of each with calipers at 3 points - 2 along the "equator" (seem) and one at the "poles" - in relation to the "equator". the results are interesting and a good indicator of size and roundness

Valken Graffitti averages:
equator 1: 0.678 equator 2: 0.678 poles: 0.662

Nelson Averages:
equator 1: 0.674 equator 2: 0.675 poles: 0.665

Proshar averages:
equator 1: 0.668 equator 2: 0.667 poles: 0.661

by that standard proshar is the roundest with a .006 difference in diameter on average at the poles from the seems and nelson second with 0.01 and valken with 0.016

accuracy.
I shot 20 rounds of valken and Nelson through an autococker running a 0.689 brass palmer barrel with wedgits at a 10" round target at 45 and 62 feet all at around 280 fps
Nelson was 16 out of 20 at 45' ' and 14 out of 20 at 62' Valken was 14 out of 20 @ 45' and 9 out of 20 @ 62'

while by no means definitive - i want to try more guns and barrels, I enjoyed shooting the Nelson allot - when they hit the target the group was tighter. of the ones that missed 2-3 really veered wildly off target.

I hope this helps. I'm confident Nelson can give us a good product - i'd be really stoked If I had that quality in a larger bore ball. is it what it used to be? was paint better back then? hard to know for sure - we tend to exaggerate these things in our heads. has anyone done tests like this back in the day?

is Graffitti a good bar to set these days?

I'm willing to order up a couple more boxes of other brands and run the numbers for a larger data set - anyone else is welcome to help with paint they have on their hands.

time to zone out on some TV

[MrBarraclough]

Doing the Lord's work, here. Thanks for that.

I'm surprised that the Nelson didn't measure out larger. I haven't taken calipers to the Nelson Ranger that I get locally, but when I bought a .685 barrel back in February I ended up sending it back because it was way too tight. I would've blown my eardrums out trying to blow Ranger through it; had to use a squeegee to ramrod it back out the breech. Ranger will blow through (but not fall/roll through) my .689 barrels without too much effort but will fall right through a stock Automag barrel, which I think is either a .692 or .695.

I'm not surprised by the 0.01 difference between equitorial and polar diameters. I've noticed that sometimes Ranger will look a little oblate, a little fatter at the seam than the poles. Not by a huge amount, but next to something really spherical you can kinda see it (or at least convince yourself you do). Some batches look more spherical than others, at least to my eye. Too bad I shot or gave away to renters on my team all the Ranger I had on hand Saturday. I can get some more in a couple of weeks and see what the calipers say.

I recall a pretty rigorous set of barrel tests that was posted as a long thread on PBnation some years ago. I think the guy who did the testing was an engineering undergrad who did it as a project for school. He wasn't testing bore diameter specifically, as I recall, but more comparing different brands and their advertised gimmicks like different porting patterns or rifling or whatever. I think this may have been before freak kits made bore diameter the focus of most barrel debates. So while his data unfortunately didn't test that particular variable, his setup and methodology could be instructive. As I type this from memory, I think the range was 70' and I know it was done indoors and from a marker in bench vise. What I thought was really clever was that instead of shooting at a small target and recording hit/miss, his target was something like 2'x2' or 4'x4' and divided into a grid of 1" or 2" squares. Each hit was plotted on the grid as x,y coordinates. Those numerical values could be dumped into a spreadsheet and analyzed to yield actual quantifiable comparisons. He could determine the center of the grouping by taking the mean or the median values on each axis and then quantify how tight or loose the grouping was in relation to that center. Since each group was evaluated relative to its own center, changes in the point of aim from swapping the barrels or having to set up and take down the marker between test sessions could not introduce error.

[Drcemento]

I should qualify that those caliper numbers DO NOT translate to what freak insert or barrel works best. based on the blow test a .684 insert worked the best.

[Chuck E Ducky]

I think Graffiti is a good bar but others experience may vary. I feel like paint can be very location dependent. I get decent quality Graffiti. It’s usually my go to. My Local proshop MSG paintball is carrying it and it’s pretty consistent in quality but we are literally 40min north of the port they ship it to so it’s not traveling far after it’s pulled from the shipping container. Don’t know if it’s that or the fact my proshop stores it in perfect conditions and it’s rotated regularly. They also sell a lot of paint so it’s always fresh. It don’t sit long so it’s about as fresh as we are going to get it.

Pro Shar is what I shoot at events for Tournament play and often has great results however the paint is made specifically for events so it fresh and super round bursting at the seams full. Like literally I had a case that got to warm in the car and they were literally splitting at the seams they were so full. It was a noticeably heavier ball. Flew super straight and broke on everything it had no air in the ball. I still have a case I’m rotating but it’s just to cold now in the NE to shoot it now. (It’s brittle and seems to store well as long as you don’t let it get to hot) but it’s got to be warm enough to shoot it. So the conditions have to be just right but when they are there is nothing like good paint.

Heavy paintballs fly straighter and break easily. A larger ball will naturally fly better just due to its weight. The less air it has in the ball the straighter it will fly. That’s why tournament paint purchased at events flys so well they are filled to the brim with paint and temperature controlled. It effects shelf life filling them like that. The stuff they ship to suppliers they don’t seem to fill as much as the stuff the send to events like NXL.

I think a larger ball is going to naturally shoot better just due to the extra weight of the ball. As long as the ball is filled decently and not just a bigger shell with the same amount of fill.

On a side note I always shake up my paint in the bag when I get it. It mixes up the fill and air balancing the ball better people will look at yah odd sometimes but it makes a noticeable difference especially with paint that has been sitting a while. Air is going to go to the top heavily parts of fill settle to the bottom making it heavy on one side of the ball. Shaking up a bag really helps mix all that up. It’s more noticeable with a pump and limited paint style play, because your watching each shot more. You get a lot less of those shots that curve off as the ball starts to slow down.

[Drcemento]

thanks chuck.

i do wonder about the airspace - it makes sense for the curveball argument, however my understanding of paint manufacturing is that the ball size is controlled by the fill amount, so unless tournament balls are bigger I don't know how they would somehow fill them fuller?

Proshar is a good ball, however I do not prefer them due to their brittleness and insanely small size. they do not work well at all in a mag or heavy hitting older guns

[Chuck E Ducky]

The stuff I have from Pro Shar is larger in size and noticeably heavier. Like just holding it in you hand you can tell so is a substantial amount more weight to it. I have heard complaints that there ball is very small. Maybe I just got a good batch I did get it from an NXL event Vs buying it from a proshop. It is a very fragile paint I can see it giving issues on markers that are harder on paint.

I agree and think Graffiti is the best all round paint it shoots even better as it gets colder and a lil more brittle. But works in a lot of different temperature conditions and in a lot of different harder shooting markers. A large bore graffiti would be the perfect paint I think. Especially with the idea of older markers in mind that may not be the softest on paint.

Anyone remember the white box/ heat crap they use to sell for practice paint. That stuff was terrible so inconsistent hard as a rock and filled with mostly air and some weird chalky like fill. If you had a pod of that paint and a pod of say Marbleizer (before they went to crap) or All Star it was noticeable the weight difference.

From my experience the heavy paint flys the best and shoots most accurately. I think because it’s got less air in the ball and more fill.