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Old 12-22-2012, 12:22 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Maximum efficiency off a 13 ci?

hey guys, the title is pretty much self explanatory, I'm looking to get the most out of my 13 ci tank on my snipers. I know sweet spotting my reg gives me the best efficiency for that particular setup and barrel to paint match is important but what about the best possible efficiency on a sniper. Is a valve that likes higher pressure, mid pressure, or low pressure going to be a good starting point? Is unregged a better way to go? what about hammer weight? Are there any general principles to be followed with sniper efficiency on HPA?

Obviously no one is going to give me the perfect answer for my particular setup, but I'm just looking for ideas to point me in the right direction instead of experimenting aimlessly.

As a starting point here are my 3 main sniper setups

dye reflex
stock dye venturi bold
RAT 3:16 valve
freeflow tungsten hammer
lightest springs i could find(idk if they're even cocker springs but the gun shoots smooth and quiet)
sidewinder reg

dye reflex
stock dye venturi bolt
ANS valve
Dye hammer
madman kit
WGP ergo reg

04 autococker
shocktech supafly bolt
wgp lower tube
wgp reg
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Old 12-22-2012, 12:34 AM   #2 (permalink)
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I think the most important part of good efficiency on a sniper is sweet spotting your valve/hammer spring.

So #1 thing is getting a good spring kit.
After that the correct type of valve (HP, Mid-pressure, or low pressure).
Along with the proper valve, a good barrel is also very important (paint to barrel match; proper length for CO2 or HPA; amount of porting; step or straight bore).
Then the type of hammer (generally heavy, although using a HP valve not necessarily).

I get about 170 using a LP setup w/ Tungsten (Freeflow) hammer and AKA Tornado valve. Runs of a SST AKA reg @ about 150psi. I use a new style '99+ style high volume sniper body with valve chamber bored out and medium sized volumizer. My barrel is 10" with minimal venting, although I often use a 8" non-vented barrel, both straight bore. Always try and underbore by -0.005 (if using 0.685 paint I'll use a .680 freak insert). I use a generic delrin bolt w/d o-rings that I've bored out a bit (non-ventri style). I use the lighted valve and main springs from a Maddman a/c spring kit.

Frankly, I prefer to use a '96 right feed sniper body setup for HP unregged 12gs. Get about 35 usable shots per 12g. Still normally can use shot 36-40, but they have to hit perpendicular to a hard surface. I normally change 12gs around shot 30, simply because I run 10rnd stock class feed and prefer to have my velocity as close to field limit and consistent as possible, and as I said that drops off after shot 30 and very quickly after shot 35.

And for this kinda gun, I think you're looking at a absolute/theoretical max of 200-250 shots per 13ci/3000psi tank. Never seen or heard of any such sniper type pump, but who knows. I think CCM such guns can get above 200 shots per 13ci/3k-psi tank, but again I've never had the pleasure of handling such a beau.

Last edited by toymachine; 12-22-2012 at 04:05 PM.
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Old 12-22-2012, 08:44 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Well tuned ccm pump guns barely get 200, most guns get about 150.
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Old 12-22-2012, 11:35 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Yea, although I can imagine it in a theoretical sense, I've never come across or heard of a pump gun - let alone semi/fully-auto - that can get over 200-210 shots out of a 13ci/3000psi tank.
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Old 12-23-2012, 12:00 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Well, this guy is talking about a pump, so there will be no rapid-fire cooling of the tank, boosting on field efficency, and someone-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPiZDqaaBS4
Got over 210 on a j12 shooting relitivley fast.

If done right, tuned properly, rof control, efficent internals, etc., Id bet someone could squeze 250 out if thats what they were really going for.

Most guns, though, will still get around 150.
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Old 12-23-2012, 12:55 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Yea, I also had saw that about CCM's newest of pump, which is why I said 210 max. And as you also pointed out, this is much much much more of the exception than the rule.
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Old 12-23-2012, 12:58 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toymachine View Post
Yea, although I can imagine it in a theoretical sense, I've never come across or heard of a pump gun - let alone semi/fully-auto - that can get over 200-210 shots out of a 13ci/3000psi tank.
Actually... We were screwing around to see *exactly* how low a pressure we could make an Empire Axe run at... Needless to say, an efficency argument got started, and to "prove my position wrong" we conducted a test.

Junk paint, stock barrel.
Some internal gun tweaks.
Operating pressure ~135 psi

13/3000 psi filled from the shop's 4500 psi cascade tank setup. Allowed to cool to room temperature arounf 75*F and then run up to 3000 psi again to confirm the tank pressure. The gauge on the tank was disregarded as it is one of the useless tiny gauges. Instead the system's 3" Bauer gauge was used.

one to two shots per second, chronographing most.

Average velocity was ~305 fps

We counted out the paint via ten round tubes, into pods and then feed them to the marker 100 balls at a time.

The final count was.... Wait for it.... 218 shots, with 219 just barely clearing the barrel! The last few shots were arounf 290 fps, so there was some drop off, and you could hear the recharge time increase.

As we felt this may have been a fluke/someone couldn't count by 10's, etc... We tried the test a second time. 210 balls this time, but we feel this could be just speed of shooting/inital fill error/flea farts in China...

Our conclusion... The Axe can be made to go 200 rounds on a 13/3000.

Ty
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Old 12-23-2012, 02:36 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Hah, okay that does make perfect sense. Standard of "usable" shots are few and varied, although imho, as I play with stock class rigs almost exclusively, generally with 8-10" barrels tops, useable shots end lower than 230fps, and even then... I mean, technically I can get 45 shots per 12g out of my '12 Ghost, but on the field I switch out after 30 because velocity dips under 200-230fps around there, at best by the 35th shot. Likewise I was talking to Falcon about the PG I got from him - although he can get 40 shots per 12g, I would change 12gs at 30 max because around that point velocity drops to the point where you would have to hit a hard target, perpendicular to the path of the ball, within 90'.

btw, nice post
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Old 12-23-2012, 02:49 AM   #9 (permalink)
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One of the things I wish we, the community, would do, is establish a set of parameters for efficency tests. As one of the more scientifically minded folks pointed out... the difference in shooting 240 and 280 is amazing, energy wise.

The reason we ended up around the 300 fps mark was just pure luck and laziness... Made all the modifications, and never bothered to chrono the marker until the test. Since it went for 288ish before the modifications to 307ish after, something was working a little better.

Ty
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Old 12-23-2012, 03:38 AM   #10 (permalink)
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I can get 210-220 shots on my s6.5
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