Paint Pinching with a STBB

DeTrevni · 07-17-2008, 06:13 AM

So I'm thinking about picking up a Spyder Imagine to tinker around with, and I got to thinking about "sleeperizing" it. Basically, I want it to look as stock as possible, but perform as smooth as possible while keeping it a blow-back.

So I got to thinking about eyes. Would I need them? My setup would be a lot of delrin from Alamo City Paintball. Delrin striker, delrin bolt, delrin cup seals, etc. The idea is to cut down reciprocating mass as much as possible. This would do many things: allow me to lower pressure (in theory), reduce kick, reduce internal wear, and what I'm wondering about right now, allow me to pinch paint.

Basically, since I don't want to drill the body for eyes, I'd be cutting as much weight and drive-spring tension as possible. That way, if the ball doesn't feed all the way, there won't be enough force behind the bolt to chop. Just pinch it.

Sound logical, or am I going about this the completely wrong way? Should I just suck it up and drill it for eyes?

HP_Lovecraft · 07-17-2008, 06:53 AM

I've heard lots of mixed results from those spring-loaded bolts. But that might be an option.

Another need idea might be to carefully hide a small ram behind the bolt, and seperate it from the hammer. That way you can run the bolt at 30psi, so its impossible to chop. Heck, also make the trigger itself pneumatic, and that would be a pretty awesome sleeper.

DeTrevni · 07-17-2008, 06:57 AM

Well, it's not the ACS or the Jambolt I'm thinking of, just softening the impact of a standard delrin bolt/hammer setup. I was wondering if this could be done.

I really wouldn't need to run a pneumatic frame, as the Imagine already comes equipped with the ESP frame, though a pneuframe would be fun. The ram-bolt idea is also pretty good, but Occam's Razor tells me keeping it as simple as I can as a blowback will be the best bet.

Edit: Just re-read your post. You're suggesting the ACS system. Duh. Sorry. Anyway, yeah, I haven't heard good things about those, to be honest. Plus, I can see me having trouble with something like that...

HP_Lovecraft · 07-17-2008, 08:32 AM

Yes, sorry, I disregarded the delrin setup as I just didnt think it was possible. I've seen STBB guns with custom plastic bolts, and aluminium hammers, and to compensate, a heavier spring had to be used.

With the bolt fixed to the hammer, and the hammer needs enough force/momentum to open the valve, and recock-

THOUGH, a way you might have it work is to swap the unbalanced poppet with a balanced poppet. Like on the Spyder VS1- They claim it runs on as little as 200psi. FOr that gun, they really do use ultra light springs, and hammers. How hard is it to create a balanced poppet valve?

Clearush · 07-17-2008, 08:47 AM

The ACS bolts can work and can work well but you really have to change out the stock spring inside the bolt. You have to find a balance between spring pressue that will let the bolt function properly and will also not chop paint. Though even with most anti-chops if you hit the ball enough times it's gonna chop anyways.

DeTrevni · 07-17-2008, 10:34 AM

Both valid considerations. I'm semi-familiar with the concept of balanced poppits. I'll have to research it further. Would it be possible to drop VS internals into an Imagine body? For the sake of tinkering, and I like the Imagine better than the VS series.

Going back to the delrin setup, I'm thinking (hoping) I can spring it, regulate it and volumize it enough to run at such low pressures, I can run a light hammer and valve spring. Where there's a will, there's a way!

Mayvik · 07-17-2008, 10:35 AM

Eyes are really the easiest way to go. The ACS will work but you have to tinker with it, "wear in" the spring by leaving it compressed for a while, etc. Apparently it will also end up de-cocking the marker sometimes, so you won't chop, but you will have to recock.

Alamo products are pretty nice, but you're not going to be run LP enough to not chop..expect to get down to maybe 300 psi or so at a minimum. Really with a force feed hopper though unless you're shooting uberghatrampotronic mode, you're probably not going to chop that much anyway.

HP_Lovecraft · 07-17-2008, 10:45 AM

The spring-loaded bolts all have the inherent flaw in that with a pinched bolt, the spring-tension gradually increases as the hammer moves forward.
So you run into the problem where you need a soft enough spring to offset the increasing tension, yet firm enough to offset the inertia of the moving bolt, AS WELL as the detent, and friction against the breech.

In short, I've never seen them work well under "normal" conditions. For example, while playing, you often don't realize your pinching the ball until you have fired many times with nothing coming out. By that point you have likely, finally, chopped the ball.

Tippmann had a good approach with slip/lock bolt. The bolt can "slip" only at the beginning of the travel. At a certain point, the bolt "locks" for the remainder of the travel. This elliminates all the problems associated above, though it may be harder to implement on a STBB since you do have a nice, long bolt link to work with.

Also, who did that cool magnetic anti-chop? That also solved the spring-tension problem, and that was for a STBB? That might be a good solution

Altec · 07-17-2008, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HP_Lovecraft

Also, who did that cool magnetic anti-chop? That also solved the spring-tension problem, and that was for a STBB? That might be a good solution

I was thinking the same thing. One of the fellows around here did one for a VM.

I think this is it. Though the pictures are dead. I have a couple of them saved on my computer. I'll look for them.

Magnetic Anti-Chop bolt

Edit,

Here you go.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2.../anti-chop.png
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...anti-chop2.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...anti-chop4.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...i-chop5png.jpg

HP_Lovecraft · 07-17-2008, 11:43 AM

Another problem with the spring-loaded bolts is the bolt still "fires" at the paintball, even if its pinched. that alone is often enough to bust it, or other balls in the stack.

I had an idea a long time ago for a similar system that might work PERFECT here.

Instead of a magnet, or spring, connect the bolt to the hammer using as spring-loaded bearing. That way, if the bolt detects enough friction, the hammer can "slip" past the bolt, recock, then catch the bolt on its way back.

I had a drawing on my server, but just realized I turn it off in the morning. Anyone have that pic?

07-17-2008, 06:13 AM	#1 (permalink)
DeTrevni Post Whore Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 1,228	Paint Pinching with a STBB So I'm thinking about picking up a Spyder Imagine to tinker around with, and I got to thinking about "sleeperizing" it. Basically, I want it to look as stock as possible, but perform as smooth as possible while keeping it a blow-back. So I got to thinking about eyes. Would I need them? My setup would be a lot of delrin from Alamo City Paintball. Delrin striker, delrin bolt, delrin cup seals, etc. The idea is to cut down reciprocating mass as much as possible. This would do many things: allow me to lower pressure (in theory), reduce kick, reduce internal wear, and what I'm wondering about right now, allow me to pinch paint. Basically, since I don't want to drill the body for eyes, I'd be cutting as much weight and drive-spring tension as possible. That way, if the ball doesn't feed all the way, there won't be enough force behind the bolt to chop. Just pinch it. Sound logical, or am I going about this the completely wrong way? Should I just suck it up and drill it for eyes? __________________ 36 people like me thus far, and none don't!

07-17-2008, 06:53 AM	#2 (permalink)
HP_Lovecraft Post Whore Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Southern Maine Posts: 2,702	I've heard lots of mixed results from those spring-loaded bolts. But that might be an option. Another need idea might be to carefully hide a small ram behind the bolt, and seperate it from the hammer. That way you can run the bolt at 30psi, so its impossible to chop. Heck, also make the trigger itself pneumatic, and that would be a pretty awesome sleeper. __________________ www.montneel.com My Myspace nonsense "the evidence strongly suggests that neither Billy nor Adam (Smart Parts) could have invented the electronic paintgun" -Garr M. King, U.S. Judge

07-17-2008, 06:57 AM	#3 (permalink)
DeTrevni Post Whore Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 1,228	Well, it's not the ACS or the Jambolt I'm thinking of, just softening the impact of a standard delrin bolt/hammer setup. I was wondering if this could be done. I really wouldn't need to run a pneumatic frame, as the Imagine already comes equipped with the ESP frame, though a pneuframe would be fun. The ram-bolt idea is also pretty good, but Occam's Razor tells me keeping it as simple as I can as a blowback will be the best bet. Edit: Just re-read your post. You're suggesting the ACS system. Duh. Sorry. Anyway, yeah, I haven't heard good things about those, to be honest. Plus, I can see me having trouble with something like that... __________________ 36 people like me thus far, and none don't!

07-17-2008, 08:32 AM	#4 (permalink)
HP_Lovecraft Post Whore Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Southern Maine Posts: 2,702	Yes, sorry, I disregarded the delrin setup as I just didnt think it was possible. I've seen STBB guns with custom plastic bolts, and aluminium hammers, and to compensate, a heavier spring had to be used. With the bolt fixed to the hammer, and the hammer needs enough force/momentum to open the valve, and recock- THOUGH, a way you might have it work is to swap the unbalanced poppet with a balanced poppet. Like on the Spyder VS1- They claim it runs on as little as 200psi. FOr that gun, they really do use ultra light springs, and hammers. How hard is it to create a balanced poppet valve? __________________ www.montneel.com My Myspace nonsense "the evidence strongly suggests that neither Billy nor Adam (Smart Parts) could have invented the electronic paintgun" -Garr M. King, U.S. Judge

07-17-2008, 08:47 AM	#5 (permalink)
Clearush MCB Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: HTown, TX Posts: 1,461	The ACS bolts can work and can work well but you really have to change out the stock spring inside the bolt. You have to find a balance between spring pressue that will let the bolt function properly and will also not chop paint. Though even with most anti-chops if you hit the ball enough times it's gonna chop anyways. __________________ Carter's Commando Texas division The White Board Comic My SCP Feedback Ebay Feedback MCB Feedback

07-17-2008, 10:34 AM	#6 (permalink)
DeTrevni Post Whore Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 1,228	Both valid considerations. I'm semi-familiar with the concept of balanced poppits. I'll have to research it further. Would it be possible to drop VS internals into an Imagine body? For the sake of tinkering, and I like the Imagine better than the VS series. Going back to the delrin setup, I'm thinking (hoping) I can spring it, regulate it and volumize it enough to run at such low pressures, I can run a light hammer and valve spring. Where there's a will, there's a way! __________________ 36 people like me thus far, and none don't!

07-17-2008, 10:35 AM	#7 (permalink)
Mayvik MCB Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Denver Posts: 2,047	Eyes are really the easiest way to go. The ACS will work but you have to tinker with it, "wear in" the spring by leaving it compressed for a while, etc. Apparently it will also end up de-cocking the marker sometimes, so you won't chop, but you will have to recock. Alamo products are pretty nice, but you're not going to be run LP enough to not chop..expect to get down to maybe 300 psi or so at a minimum. Really with a force feed hopper though unless you're shooting uberghatrampotronic mode, you're probably not going to chop that much anyway. __________________ Factory F/A FS 68 Carbine FS Pro-Lite/Carb Accessories FS Misc Stuff FS My Feedback

07-17-2008, 10:45 AM	#8 (permalink)
HP_Lovecraft Post Whore Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Southern Maine Posts: 2,702	The spring-loaded bolts all have the inherent flaw in that with a pinched bolt, the spring-tension gradually increases as the hammer moves forward. So you run into the problem where you need a soft enough spring to offset the increasing tension, yet firm enough to offset the inertia of the moving bolt, AS WELL as the detent, and friction against the breech. In short, I've never seen them work well under "normal" conditions. For example, while playing, you often don't realize your pinching the ball until you have fired many times with nothing coming out. By that point you have likely, finally, chopped the ball. Tippmann had a good approach with slip/lock bolt. The bolt can "slip" only at the beginning of the travel. At a certain point, the bolt "locks" for the remainder of the travel. This elliminates all the problems associated above, though it may be harder to implement on a STBB since you do have a nice, long bolt link to work with. Also, who did that cool magnetic anti-chop? That also solved the spring-tension problem, and that was for a STBB? That might be a good solution __________________ www.montneel.com My Myspace nonsense "the evidence strongly suggests that neither Billy nor Adam (Smart Parts) could have invented the electronic paintgun" -Garr M. King, U.S. Judge

07-17-2008, 11:43 AM	#10 (permalink)
HP_Lovecraft Post Whore Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Southern Maine Posts: 2,702	Another problem with the spring-loaded bolts is the bolt still "fires" at the paintball, even if its pinched. that alone is often enough to bust it, or other balls in the stack. I had an idea a long time ago for a similar system that might work PERFECT here. Instead of a magnet, or spring, connect the bolt to the hammer using as spring-loaded bearing. That way, if the bolt detects enough friction, the hammer can "slip" past the bolt, recock, then catch the bolt on its way back. I had a drawing on my server, but just realized I turn it off in the morning. Anyone have that pic? __________________ www.montneel.com My Myspace nonsense "the evidence strongly suggests that neither Billy nor Adam (Smart Parts) could have invented the electronic paintgun" -Garr M. King, U.S. Judge

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