RM Dwell! - Page 2

MondoMor · 11-27-2007, 10:55 AM

I've been googling about Rainmaker dwells. I can't believe they're actually ~40mS!

I can measure up my RM's solenoid resistance when I get home from work. I might drag out my oscilloscope to satisfy myself on the long dwell, too.

Edit:
If pneumagger on AO is correct and the stock RM solenoid valve PN is "44B-AAAA-GDSA-1BA", then it's a 6V 3W. That gives a coil resistance of 12 ohms, which might be a bit much for an Impulse board to deal with.

If the stock impulse solenoid valve is much lower wattage, it could be fired from a regulated supply, but that wouldn't make a whole lot of sense. I've never seen an Impulse board.

HP_Lovecraft · 11-27-2007, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MondoMor

I've been googling about Rainmaker dwells. I can't believe they're actually ~40mS!

The solenoid doesnt actuate the valve directly.

Instead, the ram is used to compress a spring-loaded hammer, which is then released to hit the valve, then the ram resets to grab the hammer.

Lots of steps that must each be completed before the next step can start. Otherwise, the gun just shortstrokes, leading to a big mess.

Plus, add variables like a soft hammer, restrictive tubing, and some extra "padding" for safety, and you get a dwell of 40mS.

9 years ago, this was perfectly acceptable, especially when the other gun on the market was the 4x4 Shocker.

MondoMor · 11-27-2007, 12:51 PM

I thought the solenoid, when "off", allowed the ram to extend fully. This compressed the spring and latched the hammer to the carrier (and also caused the funky oscillation when you air up the marker - the poppet valve doesn't have enough pressure to close, so when the ram tries to link the carrier & hammer it opens the poppet and starves the LPR. Rinse & repeat...)

When firing (solenoid valve "on"), air is routed so that the ram retracts, pulling the hammer/carrier forward until the hammer latch catches the body pin. This releases the hammer from the carrier, sending it back to open the valve and fire the ball.

After the dwell is up, the board turns the solenoid valve off again which sends the ram backwards to catch the hammer and wait for the next trigger pull.

I'm not trying to be disagreeable, and I have a lot of respect for HPL. It's also been a while since I really tinkered with mine.

If the solenoid ON time is really that long there's not much you can do other than (as HPL has said) make sure the hoses are short and the fittings breathe well.

I did the Mad Marty mod myself where a pin is added to the hammer, which keeps the hammer and carrier aligned. It allowed the hammer/carrier to move in the body much smoother, which should easily translate to faster cycles. If I had an aftermarket board, I could probably take advantage of the reduced dwell.

HP_Lovecraft · 11-27-2007, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MondoMor

I'm not trying to be disagreeable, and I have a lot of respect for HPL. It's also been a while since I really tinkered with mine.

No, I think we are in full agreement, just said differently.
More happens during the RM dwell then in other guns.

Much like E-Cockers, and early Shockers. The guns were very "busy".

nick

cockerpunk · 11-27-2007, 12:59 PM

pnuemagger is right on with the noid stuff. thats what i measured when i was working on mine last weekend.

amcfall · 11-27-2007, 01:18 PM

IIRC the WAS board (at laest AKA ones) actually feed the solenoid with regulated 5V. Weird but that's how he did it, unlike almost all other boards that just switch the battery voltage to the solenoid.

Avery

MondoMor · 11-27-2007, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HP_Lovecraft

Much like E-Cockers, and early Shockers. The guns were very "busy".

I love my SF cocker and Rainmaker. They seem like such crazy Rube Goldberg ways to shoot paint nowadays.

In a bizarre bit of coincidence, I just disassembled, lubed and rebuilt a gigantic MAC valve in some of our test equipment. 24VDC solenoid operating a ~100psi pilot, operating a high flow vacuum valve.

Thanks, paintball!

RespectTheTeg · 11-27-2007, 02:18 PM

Yes both setups are 9v power sources. Whether or not there's 9v at the coil wires is another story.

HPL, I rooted through the link you gave me, nothing too useful. They sell 12vdc and 24vdc noids, the weakest being a 12vdc 1.8 watt setup.

11-27-2007, 10:55 AM	#11 (permalink)
MondoMor "Range Safety"? Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Rogers, MN Posts: 287	I've been googling about Rainmaker dwells. I can't believe they're actually ~40mS! I can measure up my RM's solenoid resistance when I get home from work. I might drag out my oscilloscope to satisfy myself on the long dwell, too. Edit: If pneumagger on AO is correct and the stock RM solenoid valve PN is "44B-AAAA-GDSA-1BA", then it's a 6V 3W. That gives a coil resistance of 12 ohms, which might be a bit much for an Impulse board to deal with. If the stock impulse solenoid valve is much lower wattage, it could be fired from a regulated supply, but that wouldn't make a whole lot of sense. I've never seen an Impulse board. Last edited by MondoMor; 11-27-2007 at 11:13 AM.

11-27-2007, 12:59 PM	#15 (permalink)
cockerpunk MCB Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 1,265	pnuemagger is right on with the noid stuff. thats what i measured when i was working on mine last weekend. __________________ the ultimate truth in paintball is that the interaction between the gun and the player is far and away the largest factor in accuracy, consistency, and reliability. >>PAINTBALL SCIENCE!<< "Originally posted by Garbageman705: Arguing with Cockerpunk is like fighting a T-Rex. Your going to get your *** kicked."

11-27-2007, 02:18 PM	#18 (permalink)
RespectTheTeg Newbie Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Philly, PA Posts: 11	Yes both setups are 9v power sources. Whether or not there's 9v at the coil wires is another story. HPL, I rooted through the link you gave me, nothing too useful. They sell 12vdc and 24vdc noids, the weakest being a 12vdc 1.8 watt setup. __________________ My arsenal right now. Olive/Black E2 Karnivor FBM Stars and Stripes Mech Cocker Rainmaker, all stock Still have my first gun, a Raptor Silver Eagle. Last edited by RespectTheTeg; 11-27-2007 at 02:28 PM.

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11-27-2007, 12:51 PM	#13 (permalink)
MondoMor "Range Safety"? Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Rogers, MN Posts: 287	I thought the solenoid, when "off", allowed the ram to extend fully. This compressed the spring and latched the hammer to the carrier (and also caused the funky oscillation when you air up the marker - the poppet valve doesn't have enough pressure to close, so when the ram tries to link the carrier & hammer it opens the poppet and starves the LPR. Rinse & repeat...) When firing (solenoid valve "on"), air is routed so that the ram retracts, pulling the hammer/carrier forward until the hammer latch catches the body pin. This releases the hammer from the carrier, sending it back to open the valve and fire the ball. After the dwell is up, the board turns the solenoid valve off again which sends the ram backwards to catch the hammer and wait for the next trigger pull. I'm not trying to be disagreeable, and I have a lot of respect for HPL. It's also been a while since I really tinkered with mine. If the solenoid ON time is really that long there's not much you can do other than (as HPL has said) make sure the hoses are short and the fittings breathe well. I did the Mad Marty mod myself where a pin is added to the hammer, which keeps the hammer and carrier aligned. It allowed the hammer/carrier to move in the body much smoother, which should easily translate to faster cycles. If I had an aftermarket board, I could probably take advantage of the reduced dwell.