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Old 06-13-2012, 05:36 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Increased valve volume on a regulated Phantom: A little experiment

I've been doing some testing with increased valve volume on a regulated medium pressure Phantom. Thought these results might be helpful to others, so here goes:

When I started experimenting with lower pressures I noticed some inconsistencies with regards to testing results. When using regulators screwed into a BBA valve, two different regulators set to the same pressure would result in fairly large FPS differences. The marker was also less consistent in shot velocity than I expected . Finding this odd I had a closer look at the regulators in question and found that the reg with higher FPS results had a larger internal opening behind the reg piston, thus a larger volume of lower pressure air in reserve. I assumed the lower pressure and small valve volume was starving the marker and resulting in reduced FPS readings. Following this logic I speculated that if I could increase the valve chamber volume I should get higher FPS reading. This was supported by discussion I found in the Project Leprechaun thread. So I set out to increase the valve volume of a stock valve.

The best tools I had at my disposal was a drill press, so the easiest way I found to increase valve volume was to drill out the back of a stock Phantom BBA creating a volumizing chamber of sorts. My drill press chuck only goes up to 13mm so that's the biggest bit I could use. I drilled out as much of the BBA valve volume as I could, leaving about 5mm of internal wall between the new volume chamber and valve internals so the valve spring would have something to push against. The valve is pretty much useless as a BBA now as there in nothing left to depress the pin valve, but hey. With the valve volume now increased I was ready for some comparative testing. You can also see from the picture below that there is quite a bit of body left to remove if you had the tools to do it properly, but I'm guessing that a lot of testing will be needed to find the ideal size to maximize consistency and efficiency.



Adding a reg to a BBA setup makes for a fairly long contraption, so I was running a Trracer BBA instead of a stock Phantom valve & seeing as I just ruined my only other BBA, the Trracer valve was the only one I had available for comparative testing. I expect a stock Phantom BBA should fall somewhere between these two result wise, probably a little closer to the Trracer valve.

Size comparison of the two valves.


Test Setup
SSC fluted hammer
Polished bolt
ASP TPC about two to three turns in (just enough to have the anti-kink work properly)
Stock power tube
Red Maddman Spring as main
Very light non-standard spring as valve spring (from a local machine parts supplier)
Azodin reg set to 490 PSI
11" Phantom barrel bored for freak inserts.
.680 Brass insert
Marbalizer around .684

Comparison of the stock CCI and lighter valve spring.


For testing purposes, everything was kept exactly the same except for swapping out the valve bodies. Fifteen consecutive shots were measured and then averaged

Trracer BBA:
276
269
261
270
278
272
279
263
277
265
271
268
280
270
278


Average : 272 FPS

Modified Phantom BBA
318
320
319
317
319
318
316
319
318
320
319
310
317
319
319

Average: 318 FPS

From these numbers, it's pretty safe to say that the Trracer valve is definitely starving the marker. An increased valve volume seems to rectify this and improves consistency to what we expect from a Nelson valve train. Just swapping to the high volume valve has allowed me to swap from a heavy main to a medium main spring lightening the pump stroke a fair bit while still keeping the same velocity. I have yet to test how this increase in valve volume has affected efficiency , specifically on 12g's. I will do comparative efficiency testing at some point, but am currently running 4 Oz CO2, so am not particularly concerned about it.

The modding of the BBA was intended to prove a theory. Thus I did do a bit of a butcher job on it and the final setup isn't pretty. I plan on sourcing a VSC valve, doing a much neater job, and running it with a Female Stab on bottom line.


Update

I finally got around to doing efficiency testing with the higher volume valve. The crappy consistency is due to paint that was barely big enough not to roll all the way trough my .675 insert Freak insert and not having my usual assistant (Girlfriend was at work) to hold the chrono so no hand to hold the pump handle forward. I don't think it will really skew the efficiency numbers much. I might get another shot or two with better paint. On to the numbers:

Test Setup
SSC fluted hammer
Polished bolt
ASP TPC about two to three turns in
Stock power tube
Blue Maddman Spring as main
Very light non-standard spring as valve spring (from a local machine parts supplier)
Azodin reg set to 490 PSI
11" Phantom barrel bored for Freak inserts.
.675 Stainless Freak insert
SAfcaps Three 2 around .675 (Locally produced field grade paint)
HSC bottom line with about 8" of macro line
Around 15 degrees Celcius
5 to 10 seconds between each shot (as long as it took to write down the chrono values)



Shot # Velocity
1 267
2 280
3 283
4 Blank (miss-fed)
5 288
6 277
7 282
8 273
9 273
10 Blank (miss fed)
11 274
12 285
13 286
14 286
15 277
16 283
17 285
18 278
19 281
20 275
21 280
22 266
23 284
24 276
25 251
26 273
27 276
28 283
29 275
30 286
31 279
32 280
33 267
34 285
35 286
36 287
37 281
38 279
39 258
40 236
41 213
42 sub 200
43 sub200
44 vent

Previous testing with the Trracer valve and good paint was giving me 42 shots around 275 FPS, two shots below 250 FPS and then venting. I'm quite happy with my results for the high volume valve. Should be getting very close to the same efficiency with better paint and a hand on the pump.
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Last edited by Halo; 06-30-2012 at 08:07 AM.
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Old 06-13-2012, 01:45 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Old 06-13-2012, 01:48 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Great post. Really looking forward to what happens on 12 grams.
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Old 06-13-2012, 01:57 PM   #4 (permalink)
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You could also try the RTR Gargoyle valve which has a lot more volume than the CCI valve. The back cap unscrews and your reg screws in in it's place.
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Since this thread started with boobs what are we supposed to derail it with?
Stock class = 12grams and a stick feed. End discussion.
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Old 06-13-2012, 04:41 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I was also looking into this about 6 months to a year ago. My thoughts were cci bba drilled and tapped on 1 side for a pps sideline stab, and drilled and tapped on the other side for a volume chamber off a tippmann low pressure kit. The center hole in the bba would have to be plugged and sealed between the 2 "ports". My reasoning for all this is, if you look at all the "low pressure" markers on the market, They share 1 common aspect. High volume of low pressure air. Take a stock 98 Tippmann for example. Regular setup has a low volume of high pressure air. To make it a low pressure system they basicly add another chamber to hold more higher volume of low pressure.
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Old 06-13-2012, 05:06 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I was also looking into this about 6 months to a year ago. My thoughts were cci bba drilled and tapped on 1 side for a pps sideline stab, and drilled and tapped on the other side for a volume chamber off a tippmann low pressure kit. The center hole in the bba would have to be plugged and sealed between the 2 "ports". My reasoning for all this is, if you look at all the "low pressure" markers on the market, They share 1 common aspect. High volume of low pressure air. Take a stock 98 Tippmann for example. Regular setup has a low volume of high pressure air. To make it a low pressure system they basicly add another chamber to hold more volume of air after the reg.
What if you just made a new BBA that had a longer volume chamber in it? Then screw a Palmers cart reg right into that?
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Old 06-13-2012, 05:21 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Making a new bba would be far more involved.
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Old 06-13-2012, 05:30 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Making a new bba would be far more involved.
ya but with all those hours you get at the machine shop, you could probably whip one out faster than anyone
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Old 06-13-2012, 08:45 PM   #9 (permalink)
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No goverment work at the new shop tho
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Old 06-28-2012, 11:31 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Very interesting! I'm looking to do something similar, but with the VSC setup. Bobbing the valve for a guage would probably add enough to the volume to make a difference in this case.

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