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Old 02-18-2013, 03:59 PM   #11 (permalink)
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As I did record a fair bit of info on my efficiency testing I'll chime in. I get a consistent 40-42 shots above 270 FPS from my regulated setup and I'm pretty happy with that. Haven't updated it in a while but if you're interested, have a look here for more info on my setup and testing.
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Last edited by Halo; 02-18-2013 at 04:03 PM. Reason: fix the link
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Old 02-18-2013, 04:12 PM   #12 (permalink)
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I kinda started something similar..no one really kept it up haha

Consolidating Efficiency..?
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Old 02-18-2013, 06:58 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Scharfschutze91 View Post
vsc
freak bored 12 inch barrel
asp ported tpc
red main spring

shooting around 280 +/- 5ish
90* weather + 80% humidity

I get around 42 good shots from a crossman 12 gram.
I am quoting myself here guys, this weekend i was using the SAME set up as above.
I was using JT 12 grams. And no joking around or exaggerating: I GOT THROUGH 15 ROUNDS OF MY FEED TUBE + 4 TEN ROUND TUBES + 4 MORE SHOTS BEFORE MY SHOTS STARTED DROPPING. (I was shooting 265-270) in the past scenario this weekend.

I was amazed! And then after switching 12 grams, i got another 51 good shots from each 12 gram (just about).

Weather: 90*F

Things like this make me believe that maybe a reg isnt needed and every individual gun is different like Slim is saying. Im excited to start testing
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Old 03-04-2013, 05:37 PM   #14 (permalink)
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I'd just like to say that the best advice I could give anyone who is looking for technical answers is to do as much searching and reading before asking any questions as possible. Unfortunately, searching for answers here on MCB might not give you the help you really need. I've noticed quite a few folks here giving out tips and advice on CO2 efficiency who obviously haven't bothered to familiarize themselves with the basic properties and principals of CO2. This well-intentioned advice is actually costing other players money on mods that may actually cost them efficiency. The bottom line is, it's simply impossible to discuss CO2 efficiency without understanding how CO2 operates.

Without getting into any advanced physics here, the following will provide some basic, basic, basic information on the principals and properties of CO2.

From CO2info.com...

Quote:
CO2 Properties: Carbon Dioxide can exist in three states; Gas, Liquid & Solid.

Gaseous Carbon Dioxide
CO2 gas is heavier than air with a specific gravity of 1.53 at 70 dF
At normal temperatures and pressures, CO2 is colorless with a slightly pungent odor at high concentrations. If compressed and cooled to proper temperatures the gas liquifies. Solid CO2, dry ice sublimates back to the natural gaseous state.

Liquid Carbon Dioxide
Liquid CO2 is produced by compressing and cooling CO2 gas. This liquid is a clear transparent fluid. Liquid CO2 cannot exist as a liquid at atmospheric pressure. It must be pressurized above 60.4 psi to remain as a liquid. At this pressure, Triple Point, CO2 can exist as liquid, gas and solid. Below this pressure it will flash to a gas and solid. CO2 above a temperature of 87.9 dF Critical Point cannot exist as a liquid.
Normally liquid CO2 is delivered and maintained at 0 dF and 300 psi.


Solid Carbon Dioxide
Solid CO2 is commonly referred to as Dry Ice. It is produced by allowing liquid CO2 to expand to atmospheric pressure which forms dry ice snow. This snow is then compressed to form blocks and pellets. Dry ice at atmospheric pressure is -109 dF.
From PyramidAir.com (please note that Pyramid Air is discussing the specific effects of CO2 in a pellet gun as opposed to a paintball gun. As the two are almost identical in operation, the PRINCIPAL is fully applicable to any discussion we have regarding CO2 efficiency)...

Quote:
CO2 and Pressure
CO2 is a gas at temperatures above -69.9 degrees F and 60.4 psig (pounds per square inch gauge). It is a very complex compound with the ability to sublimate (change directly from a solid to a gas without becoming a liquid) as just one of its unique properties.

At 70 degrees F, CO2 obtains a gas pressure of 852.8 psi when confined in a vessel. If there is more CO2 in the vessel, it will be have to be in liquid form. So, the state of CO2 in a pressure vessel, such as a powerlet at room temperature, is a pressurized gas above a liquid. If the gas is released, such as through the operation of an airgun valve, some of the remaining liquid flashes to gas until the pressure is equalized for that temperature.

It's important to understand that CO2 pressure is determined by temperature, not by mechanical compression. If you were to compress gaseous CO2 by mechanical means, it would turn into liquid when the right pressure was reached. The pressure in a 12-gram powerlet remains constant until all the liquid is gone. A powerlet has the same internal pressure as a 10-oz. bulk CO2 tank when both are at the same temperature. Therefore, CO2 guns do not lose velocity as you shoot them until all the liquid is gone and they start to run out of gas.

Also, keep in mind that CO2 is a refrigerant gas. That means it cools when it expands by flashing from liquid to gas. Therefore, when you shoot a CO2 gun rapidly, the gas will cool the gun parts considerably. Because CO2 pressure is based on temperature, the pressure in a CO2 gun will drop if a series of shots are fired in rapid succession. In practical testing, I've seen velocities decrease by more than 100 f.p.s. over a long string of shots. That will affect where the pellet strikes the target unless it's very close to the shooter. So, if you want to shoot accurately with a CO2 gun, do not shoot rapid-fire. With a target pistol, I like to allow at least 15 seconds between shots so the gun's temperature can cycle back to where it was before the shot. But, if you're just plinking, you can shoot faster than that.

DOT regulations require the use of a burst disk in pressure vessels larger than two inches in diameter. The brass nut with the hole in the side contains the burst disk in this bulk CO2 tank. If pressure inside the tank rises above the safety level, the disk ruptures, releasing all the gas inside. That keeps the entire bulk tank from exploding with the force of a bomb.

On a very hot day, CO2 pressure will climb rapidly into the danger region. Where that danger region is, depends on how much liquid is in the pressure vessel. Larger CO2 tanks have pressure-relief devices for safety; so, instead of the whole tank blowing apart like a hand grenade, the burst disk will rupture and exhaust all the gas. When this happens, it's very startling to anyone nearby, and the tank has to be repaired before it will hold CO2 again. Obviously, it's unsafe to leave a CO2 gun or a tank in a closed car on a hot day.
So, what have we learned here?

1) CO2 can exist as a gas, liquid or solid. CO2 gas turns into a liquid when it is compressed and cooled. It will sublimate ("boils", "flashes") back into a gas (or solid) when it reaches a pressure of just over 60 PSI, and/or temperatures over 70F.

2) CO2 pressure is determined by temperature, not by mechanical compression.

When Scharfschutze91 states that he's getting "around 40 - 45 shots off of a 12 gram shooting around 290-300 fps", is it because he's using a Freak-bored barrel and a red main spring? Or is it because he lives in Miami, Florida and was shooting in 90 heat with 80% humidity?

If Pauly took Scharfschutze91's Phantom from Miami to his house in Long Island New York today, and shoots it in 41 weather with 30% humidity, do you think he'll get 40 shots off of a 12-gram?

No, because the cold temperature in NY will decrease the overall pressure (i.e. efficiency) of the 12-gram. While the mods in Scharfschutze91's Phantom may garner an extra shot or two, it's the temperature that is making the real difference. Also, the temps and lower humidity in NY will keep the paint from swelling up slightly, which may allow "blow-by" even with inserts or a bore-matched barrel.

If Pauly waited till the dead of Summer when it's 90 out with high humidity on Long Island, then I'm sure he would see similar results as Scharfschutze91, but at 90, even an unmodified Phantom will see a noticeable increase in efficiency. Why? Because CO2 pressure is determined by temperature.

3) At 70 F, the pressure of an unopened 12-gram CO2 Cartridge is 852.8 psi.

4) CO2 is a cryogenic liquid (gas) which dramatically cools down the valve system in the Phantom. Therefore, the pressure will drop dramatically when a series of shots are fired in rapid succession.

Another critical un-answered question from the scenario above involving Scharfschutze91's 40 shots off of a 12-gram: how much time elapsed in between shots? Without any mods, a factory Phantom will seem comparatively efficient if a sufficient amount of time is given for the gun to warm up in between shots (thus allowing the CO2 to heat up and expand into a gas). Add all the efficiency mods you want. If you don't pause between shots to let the gun/CO2 warm up, then the mods will have little effect.

Now that we've gone over the most basic principals and properties of CO2, we can discuss Phantom efficiency with a far better understanding of how potential mods may, or may not work.
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Last edited by Slim; 03-07-2013 at 11:45 AM.
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Old 03-04-2013, 05:53 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slim View Post
I'd just like to say that the best advice I could give anyone who is looking for technical answers is to do as much searching and reading before asking any questions as possible. Unfortunately, searching for answers here on MCB might not give you the help you really need. I've noticed quite a few folks here giving out tips and advice on CO2 efficiency who obviously haven't bothered to familiarize themselves with the basic properties and principals of CO2. This well-intentioned advice is actually costing other players money on mods that may actually cost them efficiency. The bottom line is, it's simply impossible to discuss CO2 efficiency without understanding how CO2 operates.

Without getting into any advanced physics here, the following will provide some basic, basic, basic information on the principals and properties of CO2.

From CO2info.com...



From PyramidAir.com (please note that Pyramid Air is discussing the specific effects of CO2 in a pellet gun as opposed to a paintball gun. As the two are almost identical in operation, the PRINCIPAL is fully applicable to any discussion we have regarding CO2 efficiency)...



So, what have we learned here?

1) CO2 can exist as a gas, liquid or solid. CO2 gas turns into a liquid when it is compressed and cooled. It will sublimate ("boils", "flashes") back into a gas (or solid) when it reaches a pressure of just over 60 PSI, and/or temperatures over 70F.

2) CO2 pressure is determined by temperature, not by mechanical compression.

When Scharfschutze91 states that he's getting "around 40 - 45 shots off of a 12 gram shooting around 290-300 fps", is it because he's using a Freak-bored barrel and a red main spring? Or is it because he lives in Miami, Florida and was shooting in 90 heat with 80% humidity?

If Pauly took Scharfschutze91's Phantom from Miami to his house in Long Island New York today, and shoots it in 41 weather with 30% humidity, do you think he'll get 40 shots off of a 12-gram?

No, because the cold temperature in NY will decrease the overall pressure (i.e. efficiency) of the 12-gram. While the mods in Scharfschutze91's Phantom may garner an extra shot or two, it's the temperature that is making the real difference. Also, the temps and lower humidity in NY will keep the paint from swelling up slightly, which may allow "blow-by" even with inserts or a bore-matched barrel.

If Pauly waited till the dead of Summer when it's 90 out with high humidity on Long Island, then I'm sure he would see similar results as Scharfschutze91, but at 90, even an unmodified Phantom will see a noticeable increase in efficiency. Why? Because CO2 pressure is determined by temperature.

3) At 70 F, the pressure of an unopened 12-gram CO2 Cartridge is 852.8 psi.

4) CO2 is a cryogenic gas which dramatically cools down the valve system in the Phantom. Therefore, the pressure will drop dramatically when a series of shots are fired in rapid succession.

Add all the efficiency mods you want. If you don't pause between shots to let the gun warm up, then the mods will have little effect.

Now that we've gone over the most basic principals and properties of CO2, we can discuss Phantom efficiency with a far better understanding of how potential mods may, or may not work.
well said sir.

Over the past week or so ive realized there is no "magic bullet" so to say. Ive been trying to get to step C without going through the testing of A and B. Trying to figure out Phantom efficiency and comparing results with other people would only work if we both tested on the same day, same conditions, same co2, same set-ups

Im actually excited to figure out what works best for my marker and ppl who live in similiar areas. Talked to a few PA and CT players who share similiar climates and got interesting STARTING POINTS........and all i have is starting points as my tweaking will really only work for me in my climate

Thnx Slim for being there. Look forward to meeting you at the TAC game. You can smack me on the wrist for pulling myself in 10 different directions like the ADD kid i am lol.
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Old 03-04-2013, 11:48 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Another thing u might want to consider about running regulated is that, you wont suffer as much of the gradual FPS loss as u run out of CO2. You should be getting better shot to shot consistency.
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Old 03-06-2013, 06:29 PM   #17 (permalink)
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K i did my first REAL efficiency test today

Set-up
Back bottle Phantom (unregulated) BRAND NEW HASNT SEEN 100 ROUNDS THROUGH IT
SSC tri-flute
SSC polished bolt
SSC freak bored barrel 11'
.682 insert (the paint was my only non controllable factor as its really old and a mid-grade quality)

Conditions (i have a weather thing in my house)
Temperature 64 degrees
Humidity 34%

I paused for about 15 seconds between each shot.

I consider any shot over 250 to be a "usable shot"

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Old 03-06-2013, 08:42 PM   #18 (permalink)
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The best advice I can give on CO2 efficiency is keep your 12 grams as close to your balls as possible. Deep, wide pockets seem to work the best.
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Old 03-06-2013, 10:17 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I hate co2 and the more I mess with springs and fluted hammers the more angry I get. When it's 100 degrees out it's too hot and you have to make sure your not leaving it out in the sun .In the winter it's too cold.I love using 12 grams weather permiting.
My old set up was a 3.5 with a palmers side stabilizer.I loved it .Now I just swap out my stock for a bottom line and use a 13/3000 when it's too hot or cold.
I am happy with 25-30 shots on 12 grams.
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Old 03-07-2013, 11:22 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Like everything in life, answers are always necessary.

Pauly, do you know what the main purpose of a regulator and why its vital equipment when attached to any compressed gas/ air or even liquid co2?

Answer; of course we'll leave out the obvious and get right to the point. And though the answer is also obvious and simple, it rarely gets mentioned. Ready? Sit down though, because you'll probably **** your pants as soon as you hear it. Ready? Okay, here it comes... Are you familiar with the word libra? No! Not the one relating to the constellation in the sky. Or the astrological as well! But the one that relates to an ancient Roman unit of weight. Yea... Scale
And what does a scale do?
Right!
It will always, when adjusted properly, always give or distribute an exact proportion of content from materials being divided or distributed equally. So everybody gets a fair shot. Pun purposely intended as per related content and definition
Class dismissed.
I know, I know... I sound like such a pompous ***. Well hey, I was giving a lesson. Comes with the territory LOL.
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mailmanmike Since Monday! That's more than 4 hours though, so according to those cialis ads I should see my doctor.
tlane77 I think for a non-chemical chubby it's 6 hours before its time to see a doctor. So you should be good for another couple hours.
splattttttt I wasn't goin to google "chubbin" because I assumed it had to do with fat. The lard type, not the fun stuff. But what ever feelings Jeff's experiencing, then they must be of the fun like stuff...
tlane77 He's got a woody for your woods.
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