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Old 01-07-2008, 01:12 AM   #1 (permalink)
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tweaking a stock phantom

so...
I've owned and played with my trusty stock class phantom for many many years now. after a two year break, I'm back into things again and am begginging to become a little frustrated by a couple things... so here goes

all this tweaking started when I moved to napa, ca and started buying my paint from our local shop. It's DXS gold or silver - I prefer the gold, and the stuff is SMALL but very accurate and consistant! naturally I needed to combat the rollout - so i picked up a ring kit. the first day i palyed with the silver ring in things got pretty frustrating - lots of broken balls, but no rollouts I ended up dropping in the blue - a few rollouts, no breakage things were OK

buuuut - I really started looking at efficiancy- because I'm only getting about 2 shots at 290, and 8 shots at 280, before it drops to about 250 for 15 more shots. the weather was about 55-60 , the shots were spaced about 10-15 seconds apart with longer breaks to load. I used the red spring from the CCI kit to try and combat this, but I'm really having a tough time making any real velocity changes. my theory was that I needed to bring down those initial shots to 270, and sort of even things out, but I can't seem to get there.

could the paint be the issue? even with the rings installed - (silver works best but I have to sort the paint first) once the gun is fired is there just to much room for C02 to get around the ball in the barrel, forcing me to use a higher velocity setting to get what i need, but sacrificing efficiancy?

also - whats the story with this palmer stab for the phantom? anybody know anything? I just noticed it today have people had any luck regulating these 12 grams?

any tricks to increase efficiancy are greatly appreciated, and would i be better off with a bore matched to paint type barrel? and am I the only one sorting all my paint the night before?
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Old 01-07-2008, 03:13 AM   #2 (permalink)
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I have the stabe on my phantom. It will help with shot to shot consistency but won't aid you in the efficiency department as it adds more space for co2 expansion.

My recommendation to you if you get the stabe is to run a 3.5oz in a vert setup or a 9oz bottomlined.

I ditched the rings and everything else and found another method to prevent rollout that hasn't failed yet. Looked at a grey ghost's system. Spyder ball detent fix. About 2 minutes with a drill press and my rollouts were solved.
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Old 01-07-2008, 07:46 AM   #3 (permalink)
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I run a reg on one of my Phantoms. They are handy at the chronos and will stabilize the pressures in your valve to give the already very consistent internals in a Phantom the best chance at doing their job.

A reg isn't going to help bad paint though, and that is what those numbers indicate as well as having everything from roll outs to breaks with the same detent ring. That means there is .010 to maybe .020 difference in the size of that paint or worse. A reg can't change that.

Lousy paint is lousy paint.
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Old 01-07-2008, 09:45 AM   #4 (permalink)
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It sounds to me like you need to work on your spring combo a bit. Drop in the red main and see what each type of valve spring does for you. You should see about a 10 fps change between colors...without dialing the TPC. Find the combo that is closest to 300 or greater and dial down the TPC from there until you can reach about 280-290. If you cannot get the gun cronoing down to around that range lower the valve spring a color(always try to keep the red main).

This may take a while and several 12 grams but it will help you tons down the road. Also, I would be suspect of your paints consistency. You should be able to continually insert a paintball into your barrel and blow it out like a blow gun... check about 10 balls to judge the consistency. If all the paint is loose you can chalk alot of your efficiency issues up to paint to barrel match. If some of the paint is tight while some is loose youre suffering from an inconsistent batch. Theres no real reason for a Phantom to be inconsistent unless the paint is bad.

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Old 01-07-2008, 09:52 AM   #5 (permalink)
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If you had your barrel bored out for freak inserts you could match your paint to your barrel and it wouldn't roll out anymore.

I believe it's a pretty cheap mod.
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Old 01-07-2008, 11:00 AM   #6 (permalink)
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O'dells bores barrels for freak inserts for around 20 bucks.
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Old 01-08-2008, 12:37 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Thanks for the tips -
Kidney theif - get a spring combo close to 300 with the tpc starting at 6 turns in (highest velocity) or flush with the bolt face?

also - where do i get different valve springs for the phantom - i have a maddman kit for my cocker - gonna check and see if things are similar...

I thing you all are on the money with the paint issue - the stock phantom barrel clocks in at a solid .690 by my calipers. thats a big bore! the DXS tourny grade paint I can get locally is a pretty solid .677 I have a theory that even with the detent rings, the gas is still expanding ahead of the ball once you've fired - inconsistant velocity and lots of wasted gas must be the result.

I've got a sampler pack coming from Nelson this week. from what I've read they run a pretty consistant .689 with their precision and anarchy series. anybody have a favorite paint for a stock phantom barrel without the rings? I'll let some cash accumulate for a bit and then maybe talk to palmer about a barrel. honestly though - I think I'm better off finding a paint for my existing barrel.. opinions apreciated.


are the regs you guys are talking about palmer regs or any aftermarket units?
Much thanks again - J
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Old 01-08-2008, 10:30 AM   #8 (permalink)
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The madman cocker spring kit will work, you can also get a CCI spring kit from all CCI distributors or directly from Mike. The biggest thing that will change your air efficiency is paint to barrel match. If your shooting tiny paint out of the stock barrel you're going to lose a lot of air around the ball.

I have a VSC. I've bobbed the valve to reduce air expansion and even toyed with a small wire in the hardline to fill more space. Springs can make a big difference as well.
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Old 01-08-2008, 02:11 PM   #9 (permalink)
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makes sense about the paint - looking forward t the Nelson coming

the CCI kit only comes with main springs and a standard valve spring - i have that already. by the looks of them the maddman valve springs are definitly longer than a standard CCI valve spring, but should work I'll play with it all once the paint comes in -

"Bobbing the Valve" ? whats that entail? I've read that between the two it's worth 4-5 extra shots - I'll take everything I can get
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Old 01-08-2008, 08:29 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Larger paint is going to help a lot. I've had fairly good experiences with Nelson paint. Will your field let you bring your own?

You'll have a tough time solving a "tiny paint" problem with springs. Springs work good for temperature changes and old pumps that don't have an adjustable bolt. I think you'll end up having the same problem, but just won't need to turn the TPC in as far.

Because the paint is so small, you are dumping a lot of gas through the valve just to get those first few shots up to 290. That is chilling/emptying the 12 gram on the first 10 shots. That is why the next ones are slower and then quickly down to 250. Backing the TPC out and settling for 275 fps for the first few shots will probably accomplish about the same thing as messing around with different spring combos. Though slower, you might see more consistency for the 30 shots. Higher temps would help too, but .677 paint in a .691 barrel is going to be a tough fix with springs alone.

Tiny paint really just needs a tiny bored barrel, and the stock springs with the TPC will work just fine at most temperature ranges. Lapco used to offer a "Micro Shot" that I like a lot. It is around the .682-4 range. That would work a lot better with the detent rings.

Of course the freaky toobs are an option. I've just never been a big fan of those inserts. I like a full barrel that is the right bore the best. Lots of people disagree with me on that point.

There are several techniques to make you valve more efficient. The rule is the less volume, the more shots per 12 gram. There is the bobbed valve, and the wire inside of the gas line. I've even put washers and rods inside of the valve spring to cut down on the inside volume. It all helps, but 3 -4 extra shots with just a bobbed valve is probably wishful thinking.
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