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Old 04-19-2011, 11:24 AM   #111 (permalink)
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Alright.... I don't mean to be a jerk but this insurance company stuff, lawyer stuff, and governmental involvement stuff is, in my opinion, out of hand.

This is their land and if it is how they are going to run a business they, to some degree, have that right. They also have the responsibility if anyone gets hurt. Now I know you are concerned about making sure everyone else is safe but it is not your job. If I really wanted to be involved I would write a letter and sent it certified delivery to the management of the business, the owners of the business, and the owners of the land (if seperate). All of them have an interest in safety and an interest in correcting any safety issues that are presented them. If you feel the need to "inform the public" I would write a letter to the editor. If you think this is not enough invite a reporter to a game at a safe field, show them that paintball can be safe - suggest someone else may not be playing safely, they might make a story of it. I doubt any insurance company will discuss anything with you as you are not a party to the policy.

All those things done and with no results you as a consumer have the final option of voting with your wallet. Do not play anyplace that does not meet your standards (be the safety, style of play, whatever). You do not have to play, and voting with your wallet will likely be, in the long run, far more effective.
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Old 04-19-2011, 04:47 PM   #112 (permalink)
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Alright.... I don't mean to be a jerk but this insurance company stuff, lawyer stuff, and governmental involvement stuff is, in my opinion, out of hand.

This is their land and if it is how they are going to run a business they, to some degree, have that right. They also have the responsibility if anyone gets hurt. Now I know you are concerned about making sure everyone else is safe but it is not your job.
I think it is the responsibility of anyone who enjoys this sport to make sure it is played safely wherever it is played. No, it isn't a players "job" to correct the problems at this field, but imagine the consequences if looni30's lenses hadn't held and he's lost an eye. Not only would the field be out of business and looni30 would lose his depth perception, the world wide reputation of paintball would take a hit. All the Countries, States, Counties, Cities and Towns that had ever been concerned about paintball would once again bring up legislation banning or regulating it.

I don't understand this attitude that people have where they consider "interfering with" a business to be immoral because the problem will correct itself once their unsafe practices injure or kill someone, the company goes under and the industry as a whole decides to change so they won't be sued out of existence.

I for one admire Scharfschutze91 for not just voting with his money, but actually trying to fix a safety issue that could give our whole sport a bad reputation.
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Old 04-19-2011, 05:00 PM   #113 (permalink)
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In fairness I did point out ways I would make others aware.

If a customer were to call my insurance company or agent and they were to discuss any details of my policy I would argue they had violated a fidiciuary duty to me - they would no longer be my agent / carrier.

Do you really want government involved with paintball?
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"Use peaceful means where they are appropriate; but where they are not appropriate, do not hesitate to resort to more forceful - Thupten Gyatso (the Dalai Lama, 1932)

"It is not the will to win that matters - everyone has that. It's the will to prepare to win that matters" Coach Paul 'Bear' Bryant.

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Old 04-19-2011, 08:28 PM   #114 (permalink)
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In fairness I did point out ways I would make others aware.

If a customer were to call my insurance company or agent and they were to discuss any details of my policy I would argue they had violated a fidiciuary duty to me - they would no longer be my agent / carrier.

Do you really want government involved with paintball?
His insurance company isn't going to discuss the policy with Scharfschutze91, they're going to thank him for the information and then call the field and tear them a new one. I guarantee that any field with insurance has, in some part of their contract, a clause that states they may not violate the ratings of safety equipment (goggle systems). If someone is injured and the insurance company can prove it was through negligence, they won't cover the policy. When I worked for an electrical contractor I would have been very happy to hear from a customer if one of my subcontractors had done something that wasn't up to code. I certainly wouldn't discuss sub's work contract with the customer, but the second someone went out to inspect the job and confirmed the customers complaint the subcontractor would be gone.

No I don't. I would prefer if the company does the right thing without involving the courts, police and government. But if someone is injured at this field you can be sure all hell will rain down on them from lawyers and the government. That's what happens when someone doesn't do the right thing on their own.
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Old 04-19-2011, 09:03 PM   #115 (permalink)
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I'm with equalizer on this. If this field is indeed allowing players onto the field without first verifying that their marker's velocity is withing the safe operating range, then that behavior must stop immediately. Allowing this to happen represents negligence on the part of the field owner.

Sports are built on rules, once you start ignoring those rules you are nothing more than idiots in a field. Perfect example of this is some of the beer league softball teams we had playing down in our local park. Things kept getting out of hand. Drunk idiot with a bat is a bad combo.

In response to concerns about interfering with the operation of a business and the field, I say that if the field is indeed allowing this behavior to continue, it shows a total disregard for the well being of the participants. If that is the case I see no reason to have any regard for the the field's going concern.

As players of the sport we are also ambassadors of the sport. If you see bull****, call them on it, otherwise it's gonna end up on all of us.
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Old 04-19-2011, 11:57 PM   #116 (permalink)
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The way i see the "interfering with the business" thing is if everyone at the field is aware it is happening and is aware of the dangers, then let it be. If anyone doesnt like it, then they can leave. No one is forcing anyone to play.

Unfortunately, that doesnt seem to be the case. Not everyone aware that others are shooting hot, or if they do, most probably dont understand the dangers. If their is a chance that someone might shoot through my mask, i want to know about it.
When i go to a paintball field, I expect that they adhere to the paintball industry standards (e.g. shooting below 300fps). Just like when i go out to eat and i order a burger, I expect to get some sort of meat sandwiched by two pieces of bread at the least. If i get served a bowl full of brussel sprouts, im gonna be f@cking pissed.
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Old 04-20-2011, 07:28 AM   #117 (permalink)
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....
Unfortunately, that doesnt seem to be the case. Not everyone aware that others are shooting hot, or if they do, most probably dont understand the dangers. If their is a chance that someone might shoot through my mask, i want to know about it. .....
nicely done!

I don't think anyone here wants to dictate how that field runs their business. , hey its their biz and they can do what they want, as long as it doesn't negatively affect their customers SAFETY. Its not like they got a sign over the gate that says " There are no rules enforced here. and if you get hurt, well laugh and call you a wuss because its not our fault"

When player safety is at issue, it is our responsibility as player to do something about it. besides the pain and hardship that could result (and it could be you or someone you know that suffers) there is also the resulting bad press. when bad things happen in paintball, the headlines don't read, "player was an idiot, hurt self" or "Local Field didn't enforce rules, player gets hurt"... they read "MAN SUFFERS SERIOUS INJURIES FROM PLAYING PAINTBALL" because the media has more fun that way...

If we, as a community, don't do try and do something about it, the injuries that happen will be just as much our fault as they are the fields fault.
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Old 04-20-2011, 07:37 AM   #118 (permalink)
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The problem becomes this. The only people who can force them to comply with whatever standards you want them to (and I am not saying you are wrong) is the government. You can operate a business without insurance and I am willing to bet, considering this safety issue, they probably are.

Many paintball fields that I have been to operate in kind of a grey area. They are seldom in zoned business districts and normally are found on the outskirts of town, often in areas that are zoned residential, agricultural, or similiar. They exist because the neighbors don't have an issue with it and the county boards that oversee them frankly operate on a "hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil". They are not going to take issue until someone brings something up.

Once someone bring something up they are (probably) not going to go through the issues of rezoning and setting up safe business practices for a paintball field. They are going to address it as a zoning issue and deal with it that way.

The now pissed off owner is going to start with the "if they can do it why can't I" game and raise concerns over the same zoning issues (again, the safety issues will not be the reason for shut down) at the other fields. They will have the expense at this point of having to address zoning issues - and you may lose some of the safe fields.

Should people be aware of what they are doing? Sure, but the press is going to be more effective for you than someone with any actual authority to force changes - and if you can get changes forced you are probably not going to like how those changed apply to everyone else.
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"Use peaceful means where they are appropriate; but where they are not appropriate, do not hesitate to resort to more forceful - Thupten Gyatso (the Dalai Lama, 1932)

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Old 04-20-2011, 03:47 PM   #119 (permalink)
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well i spoke to the seminoles(they own the land the field is on) and i spoke to the people who own the permits and rights to extreme rage and told them about the complaints and what's been going on. And they told me they will take care of it.
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Old 04-20-2011, 04:04 PM   #120 (permalink)
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well i spoke to the seminoles(they own the land the field is on) and i spoke to the people who own the permits and rights to extreme rage and told them about the complaints and what's been going on. And they told me they will take care of it.
I think this is the most likely to get results. The people who own the land likely know nothing about paintball so there is little expectation on them to make sure it is safe. Once they have been told that use violates known and accepted safety standards there is some responsibility on them. Since land owners tend to have "deep pockets" in comparison to those renting they tend to react to known safety issues.
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"Use peaceful means where they are appropriate; but where they are not appropriate, do not hesitate to resort to more forceful - Thupten Gyatso (the Dalai Lama, 1932)

"It is not the will to win that matters - everyone has that. It's the will to prepare to win that matters" Coach Paul 'Bear' Bryant.

"The ink of scholars is more precious than the blood of martyrs" - Muhammed
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