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Old 10-10-2012, 01:36 AM   #171 (permalink)
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Played this Spring at a local field, a few really good electro players were killing everyone. I told the ref we should play hopper ball...the answer was "no, they would empty their hoppers and then quit the game".

I have a lot of fun playing pump, it can be very challenging going up against an electro. I do think there is a place where a pump player has a great game to tell us about it.

Honestly, electros killed the game, mech were fine and the game was still growing.
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Old 10-10-2012, 04:57 AM   #172 (permalink)
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..Honestly, electros killed the game, mech were fine and the game was still growing.
I think there was a point of no return when the average bps reached a point where the average novices did not want to play recball. Most fields fought it at first, then gave way to the sound of nickle, nickle, nickle... and the rest is history. Personally I blame the IONs.

Pump play emerged from the ashes and appeared to answer the ROF problem - but as pump technology evolved ROF increased again and as the years pasted the fields are starting to hear the nickle, nickle, nickle song again - but now is the pumpers making the music.

Pump was the answer for a while. Not so much any more.

As other have said: limited paint will limit the average ROF and make fields less intimidating. As long as paintball systematically runs off new customers the game will continue to shrink.

In our little outlaw group we play hopperball every game. Many games we go a step further. 25 balls for vets. full hopper for noobs. < this balances the playing field pretty well and kicks the challenge up for the vets and while the noobs may be intimidated by the skill of the vets they are not intimidated by ROF.. Their added advantage gives them courage .. and in this type of game it really doesn't matter what kind of gun you shoot. a $50 beater does just as good as a $1500 space dildo. 25 balls is 25 balls. And you better make every one count.
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Old 10-10-2012, 07:33 AM   #173 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by sniper97 View Post
Played this Spring at a local field, a few really good electro players were killing everyone. I told the ref we should play hopper ball...the answer was "no, they would empty their hoppers and then quit the game".

I have a lot of fun playing pump, it can be very challenging going up against an electro. I do think there is a place where a pump player has a great game to tell us about it.

Honestly, electros killed the game, mech were fine and the game was still growing.
*IF* we have to assign blame I would point towards cheap paint. Really though it was the inability or unwillingness of fields in general to enforce a recreational friendly level of play (ie the few times a year player) IMO. The good news is there does seem to be a movement back
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Old 10-10-2012, 08:58 AM   #174 (permalink)
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*IF* we have to assign blame I would point towards cheap paint. ..
But it really doesn't matter where the blame goes. cheap paint, cheap electros, greedy/negligent/overwhelmed owners. The solution has to involve a fundamental shift towards friendly play. Fortunately Darwin will generally take care of the fields that don't get it and reward those that do.

It would be great for some type of regulatory board to review these businesses and to classify them such a that the average customer knows what to expect BEFORE they book their group.

Think NAPRA.. IPPA etc.
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Old 10-10-2012, 09:01 AM   #175 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sniper97 View Post
Played this Spring at a local field, a few really good electro players were killing everyone. I told the ref we should play hopper ball...the answer was "no, they would empty their hoppers and then quit the game".

I have a lot of fun playing pump, it can be very challenging going up against an electro. I do think there is a place where a pump player has a great game to tell us about it.

Honestly, electros killed the game, mech were fine and the game was still growing.
I couldn't agree more! Electro's are fun to shoot, and at the competitive level are going to be a mainstay. At the rec level, they hurt the sport. While great for the paint companies, and the bottom line at the field, a new player at the business end of one, the results can be very bad. Even experienced players can exhibit very poor trigger control when the adrenaline is flowing.
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Old 10-10-2012, 09:11 AM   #176 (permalink)
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I couldn't agree more! Electro's are fun to shoot, and at the competitive level are going to be a mainstay. At the rec level, they hurt the sport. While great for the paint companies, and the bottom line at the field, a new player at the business end of one, the results can be very bad. Even experienced players can exhibit very poor trigger control when the adrenaline is flowing.
Actually looking at the numbers there is no more profit (or very little) in high volume / low cost fields than there is in high cost / low volume fields. There is added inventory costs though. Obviously most of the numbers we have used to calculate it in the past have been hypothetical but they have had enough input from people who are subject matter experts (or nearly so) that they should be considered reasonable.
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Old 10-10-2012, 09:16 AM   #177 (permalink)
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the trend of cheap paint and cheap markers capable of insane rates of fire is what has fueled the stagnation of our sport. For example if you look on the used market an ion with some upgrades can be had for $90-100 or so. Even with the stock board it's capable of 17bps now add on a basic tank and a half decent loader and you've got a setup that will empty a hopper in 11 seconds or so for <$300. Or if you look at buying new a DP G4 is around $250, a halo too is around $70 and a basic tank is $50 so you're still under $400 to get in (excluding mask but I'm assuming people buying these setups are moving up from something else and have a mask already). When you couple that with cheap paint,sometimes as little as $60 a case even up here in Canada, what you get is a mouthy kid who think's he's all that with the firepower to bully new players.

Now I understand of course why fields just give in to players like this since every ball out the barrel is between 4 and 8 cents in their pockets. With that said i have seen a marked shift away from the style of play that lends itself to this type of firepower at least in my area. Only 1 field has airball around here and it's a Saturday BYOP thing so it's not a bad thing in that anyone that wants to sling paint like a madman can do that while being separated from John Q weekend warrior who likes to use his A5 or 98 and just have a good time without the competitive mindset.

To be fair though I've played a lot of airball in my day and it's my favorite style of play with that said I'm on the organizing committee for a couple groups who would like to do pump airball in various formats and I'll admit playing airball with all pump guys scares the daylights out of me as the guys with pumps especially if we play a limited paint format do NOT miss more than once this is especially true for SC airball which is a ton of fun.

Back to the topic at hand though. The newest pumps are still pumps in the sense of the word they require a pump stroke to reset the action or chamber a ball at the very least. With that said with the advances in technology a modern pump can shoot as fast or faster than a mech semi from even a few years ago. However with that in mind A/T I find is mostly a get out of up situations tool or to show off how fast you actually pump. In a real game scenario constant AT is a recipe for inaccuracy and usually a quick trip to the deadbox as someone will simply snapshoot you once you run out of paint which with constant AT would happen relatively quickly.

So in conclusion yes modern pumps are still pumps but are very nearly approaching as cockerpunk put it an inconvienient semi. I say if you're going to play pump play PUMP don't play semi with a different way to make the paint fly aka AT all the time.
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Pump paintball is cheaper than any drug habit I've ever heard of.
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Old 10-10-2012, 09:21 AM   #178 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by russc View Post
For many years I was pump-only...and then adam45 built this for me:

http://bushninjas.com/wp-content/upl...ed_automag.jpg

It's basically the same playstyle. It's funny hearing kids say they can't afford a pump. Dude...those APP hoppers are what, five bucks?
this with a springfeed would be my ultimate limited paint semi
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Pump paintball is cheaper than any drug habit I've ever heard of.
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Old 10-10-2012, 10:02 AM   #179 (permalink)
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It does have a spring feed.

I have been trying to build something similar...but the VA on my Tac one is too short!! the 3.5oz wont screw in all the way becuase the burst disk hits the trigger frame! Oh well out comes the files I guess.



Limited paint is the way to go. I started running the Gravity League Tournement rules here in Ottawa (our second tourney is this weekend!) The last one ran well and there are even more signed up for this one. The guys have been practicing with the format in the meantime...



As for pumps. Yes they are still pumps. People can nit pick all they want but at the end of the day if the action still requires a manuall reset...
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Old 10-10-2012, 10:04 AM   #180 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Falcon16 View Post
the trend of cheap paint and cheap markers capable of insane rates of fire is what has fueled the stagnation of our sport. For example if you look on the used market an ion with some upgrades can be had for $90-100 or so. Even with the stock board it's capable of 17bps now add on a basic tank and a half decent loader and you've got a setup that will empty a hopper in 11 seconds or so for <$300. Or if you look at buying new a DP G4 is around $250, a halo too is around $70 and a basic tank is $50 so you're still under $400 to get in (excluding mask but I'm assuming people buying these setups are moving up from something else and have a mask already). When you couple that with cheap paint,sometimes as little as $60 a case even up here in Canada, what you get is a mouthy kid who think's he's all that with the firepower to bully new players.

Now I understand of course why fields just give in to players like this since every ball out the barrel is between 4 and 8 cents in their pockets. With that said i have seen a marked shift away from the style of play that lends itself to this type of firepower at least in my area. Only 1 field has airball around here and it's a Saturday BYOP thing so it's not a bad thing in that anyone that wants to sling paint like a madman can do that while being separated from John Q weekend warrior who likes to use his A5 or 98 and just have a good time without the competitive mindset.

To be fair though I've played a lot of airball in my day and it's my favorite style of play with that said I'm on the organizing committee for a couple groups who would like to do pump airball in various formats and I'll admit playing airball with all pump guys scares the daylights out of me as the guys with pumps especially if we play a limited paint format do NOT miss more than once this is especially true for SC airball which is a ton of fun.
I'm an advocate for low volume recreational play as many know. I also hang out in the field owners section at PBN quite a bit (the largest gathering for field owners anywhere) but I think it's a shame that so many fields are deciding it's necessary to abandon airball fields and catering to tournament play. I understand why they do it, but I just wish tournament paintball could have seen the light and realized they need to create something that was more sustainable. The writing on the wall is pretty obvious when field owners are shutting down their airball fields. What will be interesting is to see how these owners will handle the high ROF, high volume paintball usage on recreational fields when there are no tournament fields to play on. I have a feeling they won't handle it very well and more and more fields will be shutting down altogether. I hope I'm wrong.
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