Paintball

[shartley]

I don't think they will "come back". But then again, I don't think they ever left. They are just now a niche market and not seen as widely as the standard size. And I believe that is where they will stay.

I would not mind if they became more prevalent, but I think it is an issue of paint availability (as stated by others). Paint size issues for paintball is similar to ammo size in the Armed Forces. It has been a determining factor for weapons changes over the years.

[Daiba]

Originally Posted by idkfa

I hope the industry stays at .68 cal for the time being. It turns out that any caliber other than .68 is illegal to import into Canada, and is considered a prohibited weapon. My knowledge of this stems from trying to import two Crosman 3357 revolvers into the country. They were seized by the CBSA, and I appealed it. They are now in the RCMP gun lab undergoing ballistic testing. I got the first letter stating they were seized in January...

They said 6-12 months until they make their decision, so I guess I should make another check up call.

It comes from the fact that replica firearms are illegal to own or import into Canada. Since the kinetic energy released from calibers other than .68 is significantly less (at the same velocity), they are not considered "unregulated firearms" (this is the designation of .68 cal markers in Canada), but instead considered replicas. It turns out that if they determine the 3357s to be dangerous, I can have them just as I can import a .68 cal marker, but if it is (relatively) harmless, I cannot.

Some .68 cal markers are prohibited as well, namely RAP products. The RAP68 shotgun is prohibited as the airlines and magazines are internal, and it is indistinguishable from an actual shotgun unless under close inspection.

Just my $0.02.

This...makes absolutely zero sense. Not your post, the law.

What's the reasoning behind banning something that's harmless?

[idkfa]

Originally Posted by Daiba

This...makes absolutely zero sense. Not your post, the law.

What's the reasoning behind banning something that's harmless?

From what I gathered from my contact(s) within the CBSA, it has something to do with law enforcement. I think they would rather have police shoot a person armed with a firearm than gun down some kid with a replica. Another odd facet to the law is that replicas of vintage firearms are allowed, for some odd reason... this means I COULD, in theory, legally obtain a .55 cal paintball marker based on an old muzzle loader.

In Canada, airsoft is technically illegal in its common form. 1:1 scale, true colour, airsoft guns are illegal, you can only sell them if they are clear or off size ratio.

After talking to the border services, and reading the legal code, it seems that paintball in Canada is in a grey area that has not been redefined since the sport started. The rules enforced now are still based on the idea that paintball is played with stacked tube markers that look NOTHING like real firearms.

I am going to copy my original warning post from A5OG.net that I wrote a while back. I have forgotten some of the details since then, but this is a good explanation of our crazy laws:


******COPIED FROM A5OG.NET********

I am posting this thread with the knowledge I have gained over the last few months in dealing with the Canadian Border Services Agency (CBSA). I was attempting to import a Crosman 3357 that I purchased on eBay when it was seized by the CBSA. I am currently undergoing an appeal to have the regulations involving this somewhat grey area in the Canadian legal system.

For starters, here are some rules that the CBSA enforce:

- Replica paintball markers chambered for a .68 cal paintball are legal to import and own in Canada.

- Replica paintball markers chambered for any other caliber of paintball (the 3357 is .50) are illegal to import and own in Canada. The old Sheridan guns that are chambered for .60 and .62 are fine as they are little more than stacked tubes.

- ALL replicas of firearms (not including antiques, which are legal) are illegal to import and own in Canada.

- Airsoft using 1:1 scale replicas of actual firearms is illegal in Canada (this includes importing, owning, and playing). Airsoft is only legal IF the guns are not 1:1, and they MUST be clear plastic

The regulations state that ANY actual or replica firearm (and paintball markers are considered "unregulated firearms" in Canada) MUST have a muzzle velocity of AT LEAST 500 fps (they lower it to 407 fps in special circumstances) AND/OR release a specific amount of energy upon impact. The energy part is the saving grace of .68 cal replicas; they release enough energy upon impact. The problem is that the smaller the paintball, the faster it has to go to release the same amount of energy.

Their reasoning for this is the danger involved with the widespread use of realistic, yet relatively harmless firearms, i.e. kids playing airsoft get shot by police when they show up and the kids hesitate dropping their guns.

My 3357 is currently waiting in line at the RCMP gun lab in Ontario to undergo balistic testing. They are going to shoot a pig's eye with the 3357 to determine it's energy. If the 3357 can cause damage to the pig's eye, it will be classified as an "unregulated firearm", considerered a dangerous weapon, and be shipped to me so I can own it without any sort of license. If it fails to cause any damage to the pig's eye, it will be "seized by the Crown".

This means that:

- Any non-.68 caliber paintball gun that cannot exceed 500 fps or the minimum kinetic energy will be seized.

- Airguns that are modeled after any type of real firearm will be seized.

These are only rules of course; the CBSA has stepped up their searches of packages, but some still get through. This means that, for example, the RAP226 is not legal for import, despite there being more than a few in the country. Also, some stores, including big-box stores, carry restricted weapons. Essentially, once they cross the border, little or nothing can be done as it is mainly the CBSA that enforces the regulations. An example of this is when I talked to a CBSA officer on the phone, and she tried to convice me that there are absolutely NO paintball guns of any type in Canada... anywhere. I somewhat less than politely explained that if you go to any Canadian Tire or Walmart in any city in this country, they have dozens, if not hundreds, in stock. This is somewhat of a contradiction in their policy.

Apparently these rules are not widely known as they form somewhat of a grey area in paintball. Paintball is a relatively new concept in the legal system, and they have yet to really tailor the rules to it. Instead, ridiculous rules exist that do not make alot of sense. If my marker passes the test in order to be classified as an "unregulated firearm", I will push for appeal, and hopefully start something that will eventually result in the adoption of new, more up to date, regulations. *fingers crossed*

As an example of how many guns are seized every day, the first CBSA officer I spoke to had seized several RAP guns and a $1500 airgun replica of a Walther P99, MADE BY WALTHER, that morning alone.

I hope this helps someone out. I may or may not get this marker, so I am out $200, but maybe it will stop someone else. And remember, just because you may or may not have a restricted item in your posession because you lucked into it before does not mean it will not get searched if you do it again.

Cheers.

*******

[z1p101]

^^^^^^^^^^

I remember when all paintball markers were illegal in New Jersey. Had something to do with a gun that fired a projectile over a certain caliber or something like that.

[Surestick]

idkfa
My understanding has always been that it's not the caliber but the fact that it's a replica.
If it looked like a toy and shot the same caliber paint as the 3357 it would be legal but because it looks like a real gun...

There are also restrictions on pellet guns that can shoot over a certain velocity - you need a firearms permit to own one.

[d4rksabre]

The only reason I could see .55 cal making a comeback is because I've talked with some field owners who have some of the blackmaxxs and they say they like the 55 cal because it's less paint to clean off of the bunkers between rounds of speedball.

[A.C. Basbas]

So perhaps we'll see a resurgance of .55cal rentals?


All I know is that:

a) .55cal paintballs hurt more (not that I'm complaining)

b) Shots are easy to wipe

c) .55 paint is cheap (quality, and price)

d) They use less gas, but hard to chrono.

[idkfa]

Originally Posted by Surestick

idkfa
My understanding has always been that it's not the caliber but the fact that it's a replica.
If it looked like a toy and shot the same caliber paint as the 3357 it would be legal but because it looks like a real gun...

There are also restrictions on pellet guns that can shoot over a certain velocity - you need a firearms permit to own one.

That is why it is a grey area.

I have been talking to the CBSA and other firearm contacts in government, and it has to do with both the looks AND the potential harm caused by a "gun". If you read my longer post, I do state that other calibers ARE allowed, technically, but they cannot be "gun-like".

The general rule, excluding some special circumstances, is that over 500 fps is legal, under is not.

- Replicas (excluding vintage firearms) ILLEGAL
- .68 cal (excluding VERY realistic markers such as the RAP68) LEGAL
- other than .68 cal (assuming non-replica) LEGAL (certain circumstances)

It comes down to the fact that only firearms can look like firearms. It needs to shoot over 500 fps and/or release a certain amount of energy upon impact. If it cannot, it is an replica, which are illegal. Even IF a marker with .68 cal, such as the RAP68, can pass these tests, it is still a prohibited weapon as you cannot differentiate between it and a real shotgun (internal air, internal tube magazine = no visible tank, no hopper).

I am not 100% certain on the regulations regarding paintball markers that do not resemble actual firearms, but they seem to be fine. Whether or not this has to do with actual regulation, or the fact that no one cares when these enter customs, I do not know.

I will be getting a complete RCMP ballistic report either way, so there will be a much better explanation included in that. Whenever they make it past the testing, successfully or not, I will make this document available online.

I have just taken to calling my contact in the CBSA whenever myself or friends want to import something that we are unsure of, and this has stopped us on more than one occasion.

Keep in mind that these "rules" that are enforced are a random collection of regulations that may or may not be legally binding. It is highly likely that law enforcement would care (or even notice) the legality of replicas in relation to firearms (I have asked law enforcement officials before, and they told me paintball guns are not considered firearms, which they are). Where these rules really come into play is when your package crosses the border and gets into the hands of the CBSA. They decide what can enter the country. These ad hoc rules may be frustrating as they seem to change in every situation, but it is the CBSA that will take your nice new 3357.


On a funnier note (I mentioned in my quote above), I was talking to a clueless customs officer with the CBSA. She told me that "there is no way that there are any paintball guns of any type in the entire country, as I have been working her for 20 years, and have never let one in". She tried to throw out my appeal based on the fact that even IF my paintball markers were deemed "unregulated firearms", I would still not be allowed to keep them as "paintball guns of any sort are illegal in this country".

I then, rather calmly, tore into her, explaining "go to ANY Wal-Mart or Canadian Tire in ANY city in this ENTIRE country, and you will find stocks of hundreds of paintball guns" and that if this was the case "either you are falling down on your job, or have no idea about paintball in this country. Whichever it is, you are not competent enough to be involved in this case". After 15 minutes of berating her over the phone, she finally changed her opinion, and let the appeal go through.

[Azzy]

Originally Posted by Surestick

idkfa
My understanding has always been that it's not the caliber but the fact that it's a replica.
If it looked like a toy and shot the same caliber paint as the 3357 it would be legal but because it looks like a real gun...

There are also restrictions on pellet guns that can shoot over a certain velocity - you need a firearms permit to own one.

What does a "toy" look like... and what does a "real gun" look like?

Dont make me get out my AK and some spray paint....

[idkfa]

Originally Posted by Azzy

What does a "toy" look like... and what does a "real gun" look like?

Dont make me get out my AK and some spray paint....

WELCOME!

You are now in the insanity we call the Canadian legal system. Enjoy your stay.

I think there are more grey areas than concrete law here sometimes.