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Old 12-02-2012, 11:41 PM   #21 (permalink)
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good point No Mercy, Tippman Effect Tippmans are ebolted with was boards and ghetto eyes and all sorts of trick stuff that means they are NOT a standard BB gun anymore at all they are in fact an EP gun stuffed into a cheap body as pointed out same goes for bad company and their "spyders" they were spimmies without the timmy frame.
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Old 12-02-2012, 11:58 PM   #22 (permalink)
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"That is a bad example. As TE had Matrixes stuffed into those 98s, not normal Tippmanns. Bad Company had Spyders, but they stuffed Bob Long Intimidators into their markers."

That Matrix-style gun was one gun. The NPPL team had a lot of the E-Bolted guns, the PSP team were running with A5s. Even so, an E Bolted Tippmann was long, heavy, and more cumbersome/finnicky than a lot of other logical electropneumatic choices of the time. Bad Company played an NPPL season with the VS series Spyders which really were pretty neat guns, although not the same as a "normal" gun.

"maybe some of them DON'T want to "invite them in" because "them" at the local field refers to a bunch of insecure little teenagers trying to validate their self confidence through hiding behind their gun technology, and get mad when they lose, calling the other side cheaters. having a courteous player base is a luxury in some neighborhoods, if you're not in one of those then your next option would be to exclude them."

I'm making the following comment based on the context of this thread being geared towards TOURNAMENT PLAY.

While I can't stand whiny teenagers, honestly, people keep complaining about this issue of kids shooting some untold mass of hundreds of paintballs at your bunker every game making it absolutely IMPOSSIBLE to do anything. Let me be direct, if you (using the pronoun in general, not necessarily YOU-you heinous) have this difficulty every single game regardless of bunker layout or how big the teams are, etc etc, the problem is that you aren't an objectively good player. Sorry.

Problem two: I can pretty much guarantee that if you hold a serious tournament for anything, you are still going to get a bunch of people who cheat, whine, and act like morons. You could have the most obscure competition in the world and offer some sort of prize and people will act like idiots. It's part of the game, and specifically part of paintball. I don't like it, a lot of people don't like it, so one needs to have some thick skin or stick to being a weekend warrior. There is no entitlement to play tournaments, no one is FORCING you, but if you CHOOSE to participate than you have to acknowledge there are local, practical realities to your choice that may impact your freedom to play with certain gear, encounter certain types of people, and spend money. In the end, that's what makes this all a SACRIFICE.

If they come out with some kickass new tournament series next year where you shoot 30 BPS with 500 round loaders, I'm there. If they have the same thing where you have to play 2 on 2 in a room the size of a kitchen with spring loaded Splatmasters, I'll probably be there too. For tournaments, you have to be flexible OR find a specific niche you want to fill.
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Old 12-03-2012, 12:22 AM   #23 (permalink)
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While I can't stand whiny teenagers, honestly, people keep complaining about this issue of kids shooting some untold mass of hundreds of paintballs at your bunker every game making it absolutely IMPOSSIBLE to do anything. Let me be direct, if you (using the pronoun in general, not necessarily YOU-you heinous) have this difficulty every single game regardless of bunker layout or how big the teams are, etc etc, the problem is that you aren't an objectively good player. Sorry.
that statement was prior to the op stating his opinion was meant only for tournaments.

outside of a tournament i would say it shouldn't matter if you're a "good player" or not. i've seen kids being too scared to keep playing, surrender, and then even too scared to run from his bunker to the sideline. that kind of firepower is unnecessary and people who want to cater to beginners would have to create an environment sans that kind of firepower.

in a touney though, then yeah, i would agree. then again, both sides have access to the same technology and it just becomes trench warfare, kinda boring to watch, but that would be the only problem.
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Old 12-03-2012, 02:07 AM   #24 (permalink)
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I can only give you my opinion. It's two fold. First, there are many that don't play because the game has gotten too extreme (it excludes many that would play if the game were less extreme). Second, Many of those that don't mind the way the game is played today, can't afford to play the game the way it's played today.

In my opinion (and again, this only my opinion), the tournament play would have many more participants if it were dumbed down some (for lack of a better term). The best solution for tournament paintball to increase participation is to dumb it down. This would make the game more affordable, encourage those not taking part because it's too extreme in it's current state, and let's be honest, those playing tournament paintball the way it is played today, for the most part are still going to play if forced to play a in a more limiting format (less paintballs). Tournament paintball would not die if for instance, the power at large were to say that teams could only shoot "X" amount of paintball each game. They might grumble and complain, but most would continue playing. Add that to the number that would now take up tournament play, participation would be considerably higher. Basically, technology (and not limiting paintballs), has gone beyond the point of highest participation rate.
It's a bit strange how your opinions lead to your ... conclusion/thoughts on this particular matter. It doesn't seem like a straight line to me.

Tournament paintball is already effectively exclusionary through multiple means.

Limiting paint would also create just an exclusionary game as going strictly mechanical. You can't just pick and choose how you want to be exclusionary if your complaint is about being exclusionary.


<deep breath>


Here's my problem with the "tournament participation" bit. Paintball in general has had to kowtow to its tournament masters for far too long. The sport has been deformed. We all know that recball pays the bills, yet we kowtow to tournament style because... actually, I don't know why. I'll let someone with more tourny savvy explain that one.

So when people start putting together an alternate format, suggesting that it's a bad idea because it might "wound the sacred tournament cow" is just... it makes me wonder if we're still talking about the same thing.

We should be so lucky as to be able to wound the tournament beast.
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Old 12-03-2012, 03:29 AM   #25 (permalink)
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It's a bit strange how your opinions lead to your ... conclusion/thoughts on this particular matter. It doesn't seem like a straight line to me.

Tournament paintball is already effectively exclusionary through multiple means.

Limiting paint would also create just an exclusionary game as going strictly mechanical. You can't just pick and choose how you want to be exclusionary if your complaint is about being exclusionary.


<deep breath>


Here's my problem with the "tournament participation" bit. Paintball in general has had to kowtow to its tournament masters for far too long. The sport has been deformed. We all know that recball pays the bills, yet we kowtow to tournament style because... actually, I don't know why. I'll let someone with more tourny savvy explain that one.

So when people start putting together an alternate format, suggesting that it's a bad idea because it might "wound the sacred tournament cow" is just... it makes me wonder if we're still talking about the same thing.

We should be so lucky as to be able to wound the tournament beast.
I understand that recreational paintball pays most of the bills. As a field owner who has decided not to cater to tournament players, I fully understand that . I am not a tournament player, but I do like to look at problems from an unbiased point of view. I think it's just a bad habit (or silly hobby). I look at tournament paintball and wonder why it is not flourishing. There are certainly a lot of competitive people in the world and paintball by nature is a competitive game. In basically all formats, you have one team of combatants going head to head against another team of combatants, so for me it is totally understandable that there would be a desire for many to play "competitive paintball" (tournament paintball), even if I don't myself.

Yet only a very small portion of paintball players choose to play tournament type paintball. Why? Why do paintball players choose not to take part (include themselves)? I don't think current tournament paintball excludes anyone by technology (except for those that would choose to play at an even higher technological level). There is no rule that you cannot compete at the highest level with a pump for instance. But players don't because in reality, they would not be competitive. Virtually anyone can afford to buy a competitive marker for competitive play today. But still many choose not to. Why? I don't think it's because they dislike the technology, it's because they dislike the style or level of play (or intensity of play) that that type of technology produces.

So yes, we could slow the game down with things like mechanical markers only limitations (because that is in reality what they want to do - slow the game down), but that still leaves the door wide open. Mechanical markers, during the time when they were mainstream, advanced in technology quite a bit. If they were to become a mainstream market again, that technology would no doubt increase even further. In the end, if that was the only limitation put in place, it wouldn't really be a whole lot different than what is currently mainstream tournament paintball. So why bother? Why divide tournament paintball into segments that will be not all that different from one another, when participation is already hurting?

The only sure fire way of slowing the game (tournament paintball) down and increasing participation is by limiting ROF or limiting total ammo. But I agree, that this in part also divides tournament players into segments. Therefore, the only way to actually increase tournament paintball participation is to make every one (or virtually everyone) play with severely limited ROF and/or (in my opinion better) limited ammo.

I don't agree that paintball is kowtowing to tournament paintball anymore. I do believe though that technology developed, mostly for tournament paintball, has severely affected the way the rest of paintball is played and probably will forever.

Last edited by Horizon; 12-03-2012 at 09:02 AM.
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Old 12-03-2012, 06:38 AM   #26 (permalink)
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I agree, tournament play has distilled the game to something that is too sterile and monotonous for most. These exclusionary rules are attempts to scale back the game to something that once was.
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Old 12-03-2012, 11:57 AM   #27 (permalink)
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The only sure fire way of slowing the game (tournament paintball) down and increasing participation is by limiting ROF or limiting total ammo. But I agree, that this in part also divides tournament players into segments. Therefore, the only way to actually increase tournament paintball participation is to make every one (or virtually everyone) play with severely limited ROF and/or (in my opinion better) limited ammo.
I agree with this. Limiting total paint usage is going to be better than limiting equipment usage from a player's perspective, and will achieve the same goal on a slightly different path. I also think it's going to be far easier to enforce, and far more effective at reaching that goal because players don't technologically advance their paint. It's more of a constant, not a variable, that you're trying to control.

It's not going to be popular with tourney hosts who make money on paint sales, but there's always the ability to restructure the fee format for these kinds of tournaments. And restructuring the fee format will work if players view it as paying for a day of tournament play, and not a day of XXXX number of paintballs shot through their markers.
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Old 12-03-2012, 12:38 PM   #28 (permalink)
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It's not going to be popular with tourney hosts who make money on paint sales, but there's always the ability to restructure the fee format for these kinds of tournaments. And restructuring the fee format will work if players view it as paying for a day of tournament play, and not a day of XXXX number of paintballs shot through their markers.
Yes, fee structures would have to played with, but tournament organizers would still be selling paint, they will just know in advance how much they will be selling to each team. In some ways, it would make working out the costs involved and fees needed to be charged easier for them. But it's still paintball and taking part costs money, no matter how it's done. Limiting paint though would let teams know exactly up front what it's going to cost to take part. Even if the overall cost at a tournament would not be significantly lower because other fees might need to be raised to make up the loss in paint sale profit, costs for teams would decrease because practices would be cheaper. There would be some savings for the tournament organizer that can be passed on to the player because he's going to have to buy less inventory, so even tournaments would be a little cheaper for players.
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Old 12-03-2012, 12:55 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Question in regards to the OP:

What does it matter if there are a bunch of exclusionary formats?

Back when I really played and before I was married if there had been a pump tournament on Friday night, a mech tournament on Saturday, and an open tournament on Sunday I would have been at every one of them and played. There were times I travelled hundreds of miles to play on both Saturday and Sunday at different tournaments.

Having a different format does not hurt the open format UNLESS the open format loses players because it is not offering the type of paintball they want to play.

At this point I literally avoid going to paintball when the style is going to be open class tournament style speedball. I don't enjoy this. If this is all that was available I wouldn't play paintball.

More formats allow more players in - it makes the pie bigger. It does not hurt whatever pet format you have.

Granted I think some of the formats being discussed are too restricted but why not try it and see what happens.
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Old 12-03-2012, 01:38 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Motorsports don't seem to have a problem with exclusionary levels of competition.
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