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Old 02-16-2013, 09:26 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Gang,

Some good stuff here. In retrospect, on the oil deposit issue, reason suggests this shouldn't matter. One way or another a base surface should be as nice as possible, within limits.

And Alpha, got it on the surface area issue of friction and finish. Rather like the racing slick phenomenon for motorsport newbs. They see what appears to be a smooth, 'bald' tire and wonder how it is supposed to stick to the road without all the tread.

So point definitely taken on that. But in an interesting way, we might run into the Wet Banana/Slip-n-Slide effect here, especially with the mild oil residue on paint. A racing slick in rain is bad news for grip. In the same way, try sliding on a Slip-N-Slide with no water. Ouchy.

But put even a fine coating of water or other lubricant on and away you go. If we can't prevent some oil from the surface of paint, then maybe we can make it work to our advantage.

Just a thought, and again, testing will help to confirm or disconfirm this one way or another.

Spiffy,

Agreed on the basic inconsistencies of paint. Again, there are so many variables in the whole system, and paint is definitely the weakest link. But we can still work on the other links in the meantime. And yes, taking the trouble to actually size each ball would be worth it for testing at least.

Vitalsilence,

Thanks kindly. You simplified it nicely.

PistolRogue,

Your experience seems to be but one in a chorus of similar voices. I completely pooh-poohed flex honing ages ago, and until recently would have laughed at the very idea. But learning that the hones used and advocated by folk like agentSmith seem much more refined than the crude sort used for other purposes, and noting some discrepancies in my own barrels, even accounting for other differences, the matter of the finish is becoming much harder of late to cast aside as irrelevant.

Is it possible there is a placebo effect or commitment bias going on with honing? Sure. I perform a procedure and, because I believe it should work (or simply need to justify the process and possible expense), I imagine to myself that my performance does in fact improve. Perhaps unconsciously I also drift toward better paint to 'maximize my gains', without realizing I'm adding other things into the equation but not taking account of them.

Or maybe I'm engaging in a kind of confirmation bias, conveniently ignoring bad performance and recalling only the really amazing hits, and use this to steer my judgment.

But all that aside, I have to admit that, measure for measure, there are certain barrels through which paint just seems to behave better.

It's almost a kind of meta-cognitive thing. We aren't talking about dazzling differences. We are talking about differences so slight they are barely noticeable. And yet there they are. Change out barrels between games, re-chrono, everything should be the same. Paint comes out of the pipe at the same speed. Sound signature might be a bit different, looks are different. But nothing else should be different. And yet, there it is. That nagging little sense that something is different.

Take, for example, Lapcos. I don't want to like Lapcos. They are to me as ugly as homemade sin and I'm embarrassed to have them near my markers. They are garish, ham-fisted aesthetic abominations. But they are exceedingly well made where it counts, and their bores seem especially well finished, and the way paint behaves for me when spat out by them compels me to keep buying them and using them.

My firm conviction the last two decades plus has been that paint coming out of a four inch plastic heavily ported barrel at x velocity should behave exactly like paint coming out of a 50 inch unported barrel at the same velocity, with the possible exception of 46 more inches distance in the latter case.

When playing, I'm not thinking about the barrel, fantasizing about it's awesomeness. I'm thinking about the paint hitting the target. Sometimes I don't even know what barrel is on it at the moment. It'll just be a thought of, "Sheesh, what is going on here?" Then a glance at the barrel and a mental note. Well, over time, all those little mental notes start adding up. And when they all keep adding up the same way, it tends to wear on that initial worldview concerning barrels.

Hence, these threads.
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Old 02-17-2013, 10:52 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Menace View Post
Gang,

Some good stuff here. In retrospect, on the oil deposit issue, reason suggests this shouldn't matter. One way or another a base surface should be as nice as possible, within limits.

And Alpha, got it on the surface area issue of friction and finish. Rather like the racing slick phenomenon for motorsport newbs. They see what appears to be a smooth, 'bald' tire and wonder how it is supposed to stick to the road without all the tread.

So point definitely taken on that. But in an interesting way, we might run into the Wet Banana/Slip-n-Slide effect here, especially with the mild oil residue on paint. A racing slick in rain is bad news for grip. In the same way, try sliding on a Slip-N-Slide with no water. Ouchy.

But put even a fine coating of water or other lubricant on and away you go. If we can't prevent some oil from the surface of paint, then maybe we can make it work to our advantage.
The racing slick dilemma is interesting. Really, the only way to find out what works best is testing.
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Old 02-18-2013, 12:25 PM   #23 (permalink)
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I'm at a real fork in the road with this topic.

For almost 15yrs now I've been honing my barrels with the oddball hone that helped start this argument. In addition I've done hundreds of barrels at Hell Survivors. Everyone who's barrel I've honed has reported an improvement. New barrel, old barrel, steel or aluminum, it doesn't matter.

For a couple years now I've been honest about it on here.
It's been horribly unpleasant for me.
I've been told I'm an unobservant twit who can't see what's right in front of him. I've been told I'm a slappy that believes ad copy over his own eyes. I've been told I'm a troll pushing a useless point. I've been told I was an ethicless liar paid by brush research to spread some evil untruth...

None of the folks who brought me all that joy had laid eyes on a flexhone. Some of them sold barrels though, those folk's motives may be deduced from that. 'Never ask a barber if you need a haircut, never ask a barrelmaker if you need a new barrel'.

In fact noone in THIS thread has tried an Extra Fine Levigated Alumina hone, with the exception of PistolRogue, who agrees that it makes a difference.

It does make a difference. Shoot an LA honed barrel at more than point blank range and you will agree.

For those who feel the paintball is so limiting to accuracy that this couldn't make a difference, you're wrong.
Unless you've tried it through every kind of barrel recommended by your fellow paintballers, saying you know enough to judge what the paintball's limits are is just wrong.

Why cockerpunk and bryce or anyone else, until Ty stepped up, have refused to test a barrel honed this way is a question for them.

Guilt and sportsmanship are what forced me to speak. People were asking for tips and I couldn't claim awesomeness where finish was a hero.
I wear no medals I don't earn first.

If I had it to do over again, I honestly would've never posted my first word about paintball or any one after that, certainly wouldn't have mentioned this subject. To a certain degree this even ruined MCB for me, as I now know there are snakes in this garden like any other...

You may rest assured that if there ARE any unlikely sounding paintball secrets still locked in this old brain, they won't be released to trouble anyone.
I go back to in-person transmission only soon, just a few more things for the sidearm section and agentsmith will cease to exist.
EDIT: I wanted to clarify that the barrelmakers posting in THIS thread have been politely interested gentle men!
Rob
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Last edited by agentSmith; 02-18-2013 at 01:36 PM.
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Old 02-18-2013, 01:02 PM   #24 (permalink)
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I will be testing this and creating a couple of barrels this week, provided that work doesn't completely dominate my schedule. I think I would like to do a double blind study locally, and then I will happily loan out the barrels. I do want anyone who uses them to post which barrel(s) work the best.

Ty
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Old 02-18-2013, 01:44 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by agentSmith View Post
In fact noone in THIS thread has tried an Extra Fine Levigated Alumina hone, with the exception of PistolRogue, who agrees that it makes a difference.
I don't think there is a question here about whether bore finish matters, but more about how we can quantify the effects and how they come about (friction, vibration, rotation, etc.)

One of your hypotheses was that the ball vibrated less side to side on a smoother barrel. I submit that it is just as possible that the ball vibrates less forward and backward as it chatters (or not) down a clean barrel. If you have ever pushed a tight cleaning rod though a rough rifle barrel, you know what I mean.

One thing that might be easier to investigate (besides barrels), is simply measure the friction of paintball gelatin on various surfaces and finishes. With a setup to measure friction of a spring loaded paintball pressed on a flat surface, you could easily change the substrate with various metals and coatings. While the overall friction factor would be interesting, it would be nice to have something to pick up the vibration as well if you could actually catch the ball chattering on the surface.
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Old 02-18-2013, 04:45 PM   #26 (permalink)
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I've tried flexhones and own more of them in .687 than what brush research sells.

I never saw a quantifiable difference... And can come up with no theory for why a flex hone would be better than other finishing processes.

Do you have a theory, Smith, for why this is a superior method? You should remember that you're well respected and held in the highest esteem on MCB.

One strong disagreement doesn't mean we're all snakes.
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Old 02-18-2013, 06:45 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Seems to me you need to come up with a uniform test. Be it something like locking down a gun and shooting at a target with a set amount of balls. Measure FPS and then chart the hits on a target. Remove barrel Hone barrel to perfection then repeat with balls from the same case. Done several times should produce some sort of results that are usable.

Regardless of if you get a couple odd paintball's the overall numbers don't lie.

as for the Friction you could take a re-ball pop a hole thru it run some string and pull it out using a force gauge. that would be an easy test to see how much difference a good finish gives. Regardless of the material your % of force should be somewhat consistent.

Last edited by TFrevold; 02-18-2013 at 06:48 PM.
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Old 02-18-2013, 06:52 PM   #28 (permalink)
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I agree.

The purpose of the double blind test is to see if people can tell the difference, without knowing what they are testing.

The issue is... Most paintball "tests" are almost purely subjective.

The objective test you propose would allow for elimination of some variables, but there is still the paintball. I am considering acquiring some 3d printed paintball substitutes, in order to remove the seam, and overly flexible shell from the equation.

Ty
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Old 02-18-2013, 06:56 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Could always use reballs that way its the exact same projectile every time.
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Old 02-18-2013, 07:01 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Reballs are less consistent than real paint, shot to shot... And such a small diameter that you could never use them to test friction in a barrel.
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