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Old 02-10-2014, 12:02 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ironnerd88 View Post
I was wondering about the weight and balance as well. Increasing the weight of the black foam bit will likely destabilize the round ruining accuracy and range.

From the review, I would think cool idea, bad execution.
That balance issue was my initial thought as well, but if you look at FN303 rounds, they eat the fin assembly around a complete paintball, so their center of mass should fall much farther back than on a FSR. As long as it isn't tail heavy it should still stabilize in flight. But differing balance could cause loading failures, as the loader is designed to compensate for the FSR's balance.
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Old 02-10-2014, 12:06 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by scottallen1986 View Post
OK. Played with these at a Viper game this weekend here in Texas. Event paint broke orange, so did my 121's so I was good to go. FS rounds are ok, so I figured these were too. Went ahead and used them for about half a day.

Aaaaaad the verdict is????

TOTAL $#@#ing garbage.

Jammed in the same manner 40% of the time. As in 4+ jams/breaks per 10 round mag.

Accuracy was about the same as regular paint.

Distance at same FPS was about the same as regular paint. (It lost it's velocity FAST.)

100+ rounds, not a single hit on target. Switched to my cocker and normal paint, 11 eliminations in <1 hour one balling guys.

It's all in the molding/casting! The design is sound. It SHOULD work. But they need to increase the weight of the black 'foam' sabot to be on par with the weight of normal paint, their molding/casting needs to be better, and I think their size is off. Lots of mold scars and flanges randomly on them. Lots of bug holes. Just very very poor QC. Had to chrono down to 180fps normal paint to get them to shoot at 280, so there was no dual paint option due to weight differences, Jams were a complete nightmare due to, my guess, a size difference and the ubiquitous and random flanges/mold scars/bug-holes ont the sabot.

I'll try shooting the rest I have from the side feeding Trracer I have to see if I can't improve on the accuracy with different barrels and the like, but at this point, I'm not hopeful at all.

It's too bad. These can and should work, but unless they improve their production QC and make some size/weight adjustments, these won't be getting my $ again.

Bummer.
I suspected this would be the case however, I appreciate you taking 'one for the team'.

Unfortunately, they can't make the skirt heavier as that would further destabilize the round as successful skirted rounds (FS Rounds, FN303 Rounds) depend upon having a center of gravity forward of the center of pressure (the equator/skirt).

However, I still believe that the number one problem in magfed paintball are the mag designs. Trying to use a follower mechanism to hold a ball/round in place in a situation where the mags do not remain perfectly aligned and seated while the bolt is flying forward and pushing the round into the breach, isn't a recipe for success.

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Originally Posted by lordkyleofearth View Post
Thanks for the review. How is the weight balance of the rounds? Is the center of mass similarly placed to the FSR? Also, what sort of jams were you getting (nose up, nose down, round loaded side ways, etc)?
From my memory of handling one last year, and just examining the photos, I'd say that the center of gravity is maybe just a little forward of the hemisphere. I'm guessing it's not far enough.
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Originally Posted by Tom Kaye -in response to FS price critics
Unfortunately all of you have played the one "speedball" game of paintball for so long you can't conceive of other ways to do this and hence any new ideas seem stupid.
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Old 02-10-2014, 12:12 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by lordkyleofearth View Post
That balance issue was my initial thought as well, but if you look at FN303 rounds, they eat the fin assembly around a complete paintball, so their center of mass should fall much farther back than on a FSR. As long as it isn't tail heavy it should still stabilize in flight. But differing balance could cause loading failures, as the loader is designed to compensate for the FSR's balance.
You're forgetting that FN303 rounds have the forward hemisphere filled with bismuth (lead like) powder, which is why they weigh eight grams vice the FS rounds 3 grams.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Kaye -in response to FS price critics
Unfortunately all of you have played the one "speedball" game of paintball for so long you can't conceive of other ways to do this and hence any new ideas seem stupid.
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Old 02-10-2014, 02:27 PM   #24 (permalink)
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The fed into the chamber tail up nose/ball down and only slightly so which caused the bolt to jam forward and catch the bottom half of the skirt and jammed the bolt. It was the MR5 which I've modded a bunch and works fine with FS most of the time, but this jamming issue was the same each and every time it jammed.

As for adjusting the weight of the skirt I think they could do it easily and still retain a stabilized flight. The skirt looks like it's two parts as there is a distinct seam. It looks like to make them they drop the 'front' skirt piece nose down, then the ball, then back half of the skirt and glue all three together. I don't think they just push them in like I had previously thought. I'm certain with the right computer simulation program they could adjust the density of the material of each part, (ball, skirt A, skirt B) and get it heavier. It's not like its impossible, they just probably wont.

I WILL say that at 387 fps they went straight as hell and hit dead center of mass at a 75yard target (on a range) no problem. Maybe the issue is they are meant for a faster fps for military/police training.

I wouldn't want a FS shot at me at 380. But one of these I'd be ok with. They just don't have the mass to really do much damage.
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Old 02-10-2014, 02:29 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Viper banned these for use at his games......
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Old 02-10-2014, 03:22 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by scottallen1986 View Post
I WILL say that at 387 fps they went straight as hell and hit dead center of mass at a 75yard target (on a range) no problem.
it would make sense that a projectile with less mass would be fine to shoot at higher velocities. you should be able to find the velocity at which these projectiles hit with the same force as a regular paintball. good luck convincing any field to allow it though.
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Old 02-11-2014, 06:33 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Viper banned these for use at his games......
First I've heard of that. Refs had no issues as long as I was shooting the proper color and at speed. No big loss either way though.
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Old 02-11-2014, 10:59 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Crimson Death View Post
Viper banned these for use at his games......
Any reason given? I suspect he'd do that if they didn't break as they should.

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Originally Posted by scottallen1986 View Post
The fed into the chamber tail up nose/ball down and only slightly so which caused the bolt to jam forward and catch the bottom half of the skirt and jammed the bolt. It was the MR5 which I've modded a bunch and works fine with FS most of the time, but this jamming issue was the same each and every time it jammed.

As for adjusting the weight of the skirt I think they could do it easily and still retain a stabilized flight. The skirt looks like it's two parts as there is a distinct seam. It looks like to make them they drop the 'front' skirt piece nose down, then the ball, then back half of the skirt and glue all three together. I don't think they just push them in like I had previously thought. I'm certain with the right computer simulation program they could adjust the density of the material of each part, (ball, skirt A, skirt B) and get it heavier. It's not like its impossible, they just probably wont.

I WILL say that at 387 fps they went straight as hell and hit dead center of mass at a 75yard target (on a range) no problem. Maybe the issue is they are meant for a faster fps for military/police training.

I wouldn't want a FS shot at me at 380. But one of these I'd be ok with. They just don't have the mass to really do much damage.
I'd guess that the 121s don't fit in the magazine as well they should.

As for their construction, I was given an empty one. I didn't see anything that made me think they'd have to assemble the fins around the ball. In any case, the further forward the skirt comes, the smaller the surface area of the ball exposed to the impacting surface. Which means that the user is going to feel more of the impact from the skirt (which isn't as frangible as an FS shell). It also will serve to reinforce the ball, reducing it's likelihood of breaking.

If they continue to use a standard .50 ball, anything they add to it will pull center of gravity rearward unless they add more weight on the forward side to counter balance it. The closer the center of gravity to the center of pressure (which is near the fins), the less stable the round will be. This isn't the case for FN303 rounds (which are a full sphere with a skirt) because they put bismuth up front. This isn't the case for FS rounds because they're only a hemisphere and the paint is forward. This isn't a case for the scenario dreams "Sniper Fins" because they moved the center of pressure farther to the rear (by putting the fins further back).

As for making the ball heavier- The industry had the chance to do this when they brought back .50 and promised greater range and accuracy. I suspect that there is a problem with making a denser fill that will reliably work in a paintball encapsulation machine.

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Originally Posted by Cyco-Dude View Post
it would make sense that a projectile with less mass would be fine to shoot at higher velocities. you should be able to find the velocity at which these projectiles hit with the same force as a regular paintball. good luck convincing any field to allow it though.
Something has to account for how the rounds break (or don't). The skirts of these rounds are very rigid. I don't think they fragment reliably on the human body. And if they've changed them to further enclose the rounds, that won't help things.

Given the communities response to .50, I don't think there will be any special velocities for special rounds.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Kaye -in response to FS price critics
Unfortunately all of you have played the one "speedball" game of paintball for so long you can't conceive of other ways to do this and hence any new ideas seem stupid.
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Old 02-11-2014, 05:05 PM   #29 (permalink)
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It's a two mold process, fairly certain. The skirt half with the rifling, and the front half that holds the round place. Looked at lots of them and there is a constant seam on all of them plus there is also a difference in mold texture on the two parts. I thought it was one piece too, but the stuff I got was two parts upon further investigation.

I agree they weren't fitting the mag right. One thing I noticed is that there was a difference in the amount the 50 cal round stuck out. Some were pushed in a bit more, others had a lot exposed. It was a bit inconsistent. There was some dimpling on some of the exposed faces too, but I doubt that played into it.
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Old 02-11-2014, 10:06 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uv_halo View Post
Any reason given? I suspect he'd do that if they didn't break as they should.



I'd guess that the 121s don't fit in the magazine as well they should.

As for their construction, I was given an empty one. I didn't see anything that made me think they'd have to assemble the fins around the ball. In any case, the further forward the skirt comes, the smaller the surface area of the ball exposed to the impacting surface. Which means that the user is going to feel more of the impact from the skirt (which isn't as frangible as an FS shell). It also will serve to reinforce the ball, reducing it's likelihood of breaking.

If they continue to use a standard .50 ball, anything they add to it will pull center of gravity rearward unless they add more weight on the forward side to counter balance it. The closer the center of gravity to the center of pressure (which is near the fins), the less stable the round will be. This isn't the case for FN303 rounds (which are a full sphere with a skirt) because they put bismuth up front. This isn't the case for FS rounds because they're only a hemisphere and the paint is forward. This isn't a case for the scenario dreams "Sniper Fins" because they moved the center of pressure farther to the rear (by putting the fins further back).

As for making the ball heavier- The industry had the chance to do this when they brought back .50 and promised greater range and accuracy. I suspect that there is a problem with making a denser fill that will reliably work in a paintball encapsulation machine.



Something has to account for how the rounds break (or don't). The skirts of these rounds are very rigid. I don't think they fragment reliably on the human body. And if they've changed them to further enclose the rounds, that won't help things.

Given the communities response to .50, I don't think there will be any special velocities for special rounds.
Kerry Viper-Rosenberry
Regarding Scarab Arms 121 rounds: We had them show up for the first time at our event this weekend. After review and discussion between I and my senior staff, and response from the players, I'm afraid we will not be allowing these rounds at Viper events for now.

I'm sure that people will assume this is due to our inclusion of First Strike Rounds and our relationship with Tiberius Arms, however this has nothing to do with it. We simply gave them an examination and listened to player reactions as well as that of the field owner and, in the end, made the best decision we feel meets the needs of Viper Paintball, our players at large, and our host fields.
Like Share February 9 at 9:47pm
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Retail Jackson Is this due to player safety?
February 9 at 9:50pm Like

Kerry Viper-Rosenberry Let's just say I'll watch for more testing
February 9 at 9:50pm Like 4

Brian Tsang I heard they were awful lol. And you're only saving $5. People would get mad. Also complicates things when you need to bring buy both the 121 fins and separate 50 cal paint for the events just to make these rounds viable at an event. Logistical nightmare to make these available. Onward with the original FS rounds!
February 9 at 9:58pm Like

Adam Marshall Haven't heard of these. I'll have to look them up. Are they similar to First Strike rounds?
February 9 at 9:59pm Like 1

Blake Simon i for one trust your judgement viper.
February 9 at 10:23pm Like 4

Adam Marshall ^^^ Agreed.
February 9 at 10:59pm Like

Greg Tinsley They are a 50cal ball in a moulded shell/skirt surround YouTube
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