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Old 02-10-2014, 04:59 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooligan View Post
I think that people that shoot full auto first strikes should be kicked in the junk, hard.
That's probably just my concussion from D-Day 2013 talking. 7 or so rapid fire first strikes to the dome left me pukey with blurred vision, good times right there.
I agree with your conclusion (full auto FS = Kick to nuts) but, I'm curious about the circumstances you're describing.

Are you certain they were FS rounds (I only ask because I don't know you)?
Did you see the shooter before the shots?
How far away was the shooter?
Where on your head were you hit?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightstar View Post
It's silly to pigeon hole FSR as sniper rounds since their effective range is within pistol target shooting range.
Not really. Think of FS rounds as the paintball equivalent to 'Sniper Rounds'. Based on performance, one could consider regular paint as typical assault rifle ammo (i.e. 5.56mm), .50 paintballs as pistol or rimfire ammo, and FS rounds as .308 rounds from a long barreled rifle.

That being said, I'd consider FS rounds as ridiculous for intentional close quarters play or even speedball, as you rarely if ever need the accuracy benefits if you're closer than 75ft, relative to the cost.

One benefit of using FS rounds for a secondary (backup) pistol is that they don't compress over time in the gun/magazine like regular paint does. However, I'd only suggest a backup pistol for those cases when someone has gotten close enough to you while you're changing magazines. Personally, I've been toying with the idea of whether or not it'd be worth it to get Perfect Circle Paintball to make spherical paint just for secondary pistol usage. It'd keep for a very long time, and it wouldn't suffer from mag compression.

This isn't in response to anyone in particular but, I think it's worth clarifying that FS rounds don't universally 'hurt more' than regular paint. Unless you're playing at a field that has a 20ft rule and even then, I'd call it close. It's fairly difficult to simplify what they are or are not.

At point blank, FS rounds will have the same energy as a regular ball (assuming that the ball is not lighter which historically hasn't been the case).

At any given distance beyond point blank, FS rounds will hit with more energy than regular paint at that same distance but, never harder than point blank.

When regular paint hits the human body (even on the head), the shell flexes for a period of time before it breaks. During this period, the ball is exerting it's full force on the surface of the body (i.e. your skin, fat, etc, even on the top of your head) until it breaks in which case, the mass deflects out to the sides, spreading the impact area (look at high speed video of paintball shots on bare skin to see what I'm talking about).

Shells of FS rounds are more fragile than regular paint and even some tourney grades. When an FS round hits the body, it flexes less and breaks sooner, resulting in less energy transfered into the body. As a result, at a given energy level, point blank FS shots will generally hurt less (more on the exception below) than most paint available at the same energy level.

One area where FS rounds differ significantly in their impact behavior is the shell. It's more fragile but, the fragments are rigid, unlike gelatin shell fragments which are flexible. On bare skin impacts, these fragments can cause minor cuts and scrapes. However, I can't say if the reality is worse than the bloody welts/cuts from regular paint (that even occurs under a single layer of clothing).

These factors combine with situational factors (i.e. glancing shots, dead on shots, etc) for a wide variety of impact experiences. In the first year of their release, a speedballer rushed to bunker me. I popped up and one-shotted him in the center of mass from a distance of 15 feet. Immediately afterwards and later, after the game, he only told me about how good of a shot I was. He didn't know I was shooting FS rounds until I told him after the game (the refs all knew beforehand because I went through the manager to get them approved).

At a distance of around 100ft, I hit a kid (10-12) on his fingers (no gloves). He complained that it hurt but no worse than I've seen anyone complain about a shot to the fingers (lord knows I hate them). He didn't seem to have a lot of experience so, I can probably assume hed never been hit on the fingers before.

I surprised and shot a retired player of Bad Company in the elbow pad at a distance of around 35 feet. He jumped in the air, with a little yelp and proceded to shoot before checking himself. After I shot him a second time, the ref pulled him and after the game ended he swore up and down that the first shot was a bounce, never mind the white streak left by the paint.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Kaye -in response to FS price critics
Unfortunately all of you have played the one "speedball" game of paintball for so long you can't conceive of other ways to do this and hence any new ideas seem stupid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimson Death View Post
First strike rounds punish lazy people. Don't be lazy and you won't have problems with first strikes.
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Old 02-10-2014, 05:43 PM   #22 (permalink)
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It's nice to hear someone who uses FS say that using them in close quarters isn't using them for their intended purpose.

As someone shooting FS at others you cannot "assume" anything. That 12 year old may have been playing for the past 2 or 3 years. You never know right? And while your experiences are one thing and I respect that, you cannot claim that others share that same experience.

Right now on YouTube there are videos of guys complaining about the pain of FS. Hell the Avratech guys made a video shooting FS at a buddy who literally falls down lol. My experience with FS hasn't been pleasesnt at close range or long distance. And I'm one of those dudes who plays hard and doesn't mind taking a few. It's not me I'm worried about. It's the guys who don't like the added pain and who might leave the sport because of one or a few bad experiences. Everyone is going to have a different experience and we can't assume they're just being babies because they've never been shot in the hand.

Analogy: I box. Over time I've learnt to enjoy getting hit. It happens in the gym. Everyday. If I didn't learn to like it I'd have quit. That doesn't mean that the next guy to walk in the door and hit the bag and pads for a few weeks, who likes boxing is going to want to spar and get hit. If it happens and it turns him off the sport now I've lost a training partner.

I see paintball like this. If we as players rain FS on dudes new to the sport because we don't mind getting hit we aren't looking at it from their perspective. Maybe it would turn them off.
And now it's just you and me in the bush trying to shoot each other lol.

Cool breakdown of a paintball impact. I enjoyed that. Never looked at it in that depth.
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Old 02-10-2014, 07:15 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Why I think the kid was probably new- age, clothing, rental equipment, staying in the back, etc. When I shot him, I had no idea who he was and made no assumptions before taking the shot (all I saw as a gun and a mask). He wasn't acting like a baby, he was acting like an adult who took a shot to the finger, and made no comparisons. He played the next game and for the remainder of the day.

I'd be wary of taking 'how much they hurt' from youtube videos. For example, this Hustle Paintball video comparison of .50, PBs and FS doesn't account for the shell difference that resulted in a bit more cutting which, results in pain- especially when you have paint being injected in at 300FPS.

I believe that most experienced players have in their minds, a rough idea how much a paintball should hurt that loosely accounts for distance and location of hit (i.e. inside of thigh, top of head, etc). Folks use this experience as a basis for calling for chrono checks or accusing someone of shooting hot, or just being upset about it. However, even this doesn't account for circumstances of hit, i.e. was the target fearful of being hit? Was the target completely surprised by the hit? Was the target's adrenalin pumping?

Other anecdotal events:

The manager at Hogback Paintball had me shoot him in the back from 20ft (they had a 20ft rule) when I presented them for use at his field. He said it 'felt like a bounce' as in not any worse than a normal paintball. Two weeks later, while I patiently waited to start playing there, they informed me they would not allow them (while simultaneously introducing their FPO policy).

I've been shooting them for over three years now at Living Legends and rec days in my area. Only once have I had a ref sent to me with an accusation of shooting hot. It wasn't the case of someone who was hurt/sidelined and the refs were looking for who did it. It was a case of where I hit someone and their experience and lack of knowledge about first strike rounds (or even that I was shooting them), caused him to think I was shooting hot.

I've come across a ton of new players who usually see my setups and ask loads of questions. When they see the rounds, they ask "Do they hurt more?" and I give them the explanation about how distance can cause them to feel like a closer shot, and never, ever, have I had one come back and express disatisfaction.
Usually, they say something like 'that's bad***' or jokingly saying they want to be on my team which ironically is the same sort of joke I'd get before FS rounds came out and folks saw my camo.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Kaye -in response to FS price critics
Unfortunately all of you have played the one "speedball" game of paintball for so long you can't conceive of other ways to do this and hence any new ideas seem stupid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimson Death View Post
First strike rounds punish lazy people. Don't be lazy and you won't have problems with first strikes.
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Old 02-10-2014, 07:23 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slappadapink View Post
Shooting people at close range with FSR especially on full auto will hurt. Most people dot like pain and won't want to keep having that experience.
You scared bro?
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Old 02-10-2014, 07:24 PM   #25 (permalink)
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In my opinion, using FSR rounds for close quarters is only "wrong" because the cost/accuracy ratio is no better than regular paint...not because it hurts more. Ive been shot with FSR's many times in the head, on the arms, back etc. and they didn't hurt any worse than a regular paintball. They only "feel" harder becasue they keep their speed for a greater distance, so the dude that shot me from 60 yards away seemed as if he was 20 yards if using .68 cal.
As for full auto FSR's...its cool but should only be allowed if all players agree to it. It's a little excessive but so are the f'ing speed ballers who rope people from 30 feet away.
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Old 02-10-2014, 09:12 PM   #26 (permalink)
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As a true baller, I find this drum mag to be awesome. I love the evolution of the game. On the flip side as a slower paced player I hate to say I told you so.
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All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to shoot nothing.
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Old 02-10-2014, 10:11 PM   #27 (permalink)
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I love it.

I like new innovations.

I'm feeling like I have under-engineered the SR1

The excruciating low rate of fire that even a tortoise would complain about.

Loading one round at a time is more painful than getting hit with the first strike itself.

NOT.
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Old 02-10-2014, 10:34 PM   #28 (permalink)
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CCMachinist: I hope I understood your post but this is the internet where things are misinterpreted all the time lol. I'm thinking you were being sarcastic about the SR-1 and your statements. At least I hope so because I feel like you guys at CCM figured out how FS should fit into regular play.

I'm not trying to be a cynic or plain argumentative. I'm just voicing a concern I see.
I too think that the drum mag was cool. I think innovation is great. But I don't think FS on full auto is great. This is paintball. We're going to get shot and shoot others but why try and make it more painful for each other? 300z and I are masochists and sadists who love it. But I have seen people leave the sport from bad experiences. I just want to try and prevent that and I believe it starts with the players playing responsibly and considerately of others.

Maybe I'm just a special flower as russc put it, as in I think everyone should be able to play and have an overall enjoyable experience. Sometimes we forget that without the other players we'd just be running around in the woods pretending to shoot people or just marking trees. You want to shoot FS rounds on full auto? Cool. You want to shoot FS from your pistols up close? Cool. Don't be surprised if others don't want to play with you or if the fields find your desired play style unacceptable for the group.

Much respect to everyone, without you guys I'd be running around shooting trees
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Old 02-10-2014, 11:15 PM   #29 (permalink)
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I was being a little sarcastic.

I think most players are a little intimated and feel they are at a dis-advantage with limited ammo and a one shot gun.

It takes a lot of focus to play single shot.

Once your confident in your gear and yourself you get comfortable with a single shot.

But I love high rates of firepower also. It's fun and exciting.
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Old 02-11-2014, 06:28 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Dang. This thread exploded.

I'll agree that FS full auto is overkill. Even for FS nutjobs like me, that's crazy excessive...

BUT.....

What impresses me is not the FS shooting full auto as a means of obliterating your target. It's that if it CAN feed properly at that insane rate of fire, it means it MIGHT not jam on me when I'm shooting at my normal semi-auto rate.

I know some of you guys are accurate enough to shoot FS bolt action, but around here where I play the line where the shrubs stop and "trees" start is indeterminable. Which means there is an insane amount of stuff to get in the way of my shot. Pretty much unless there is a road or open field you won't be able to get long distance shots around where I play, so having that ability to quickly take a second shot, because your first one hit that one semi-invisible branch, is really nice. (Or taking 3 shots. Two to break the branch, and the third to get it through.) I'm just saying that field conditions make a huge difference in FS accuracy ability and semi-auto helps me out a LOT. If that's not how I'm supposed to use them, well, come play against me here. I'll land the hit, you'll be cursing at the Acaia sp. like I was all last weekend. LoL

I hope the guy starts making these for other mag platforms. If it works, I'll gladly pay the price of the gun for one for that fits an H7/MR5.
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