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Old 03-12-2013, 04:55 PM   #1671 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by OPBN View Post
I disagree. When people are fighting for their very survival, there are no rules. Again, I feel that the hitchhiker scene displayed this perfectly. Basic humanity would have urged them to stop and pick up the hitchhiker, knowing that not doing so was essentially dooming him showed and utter disregard for anything but their own survival. Turning away Tyrese is another example. Was the governor wrong in killing the soldiers and taking their supplies? Maybe by a stable society governed by humans, but not animals fighting for their very survival. While letting the soldiers into thier town would have been the "right" thing to do in a civilized society, this is not a civilized society. Bringing in potential rivals for authority are as much a threat as bringing in outlaws. Just because they have uniforms on, doesnt make them any less dangerous. In fact, it may make them more so as they had the training to take over and some within the community may have seen them as authority figures in an attempt to hold on to the last shreds of civilization. Any good leader would have eliminated any threats to his authority just as any alpha male would eliminate anyone that came along looking to take over their clan. It's no different to an extent than Rick leaving Merle in the woods rather than bringing him back to the prison. Merle posed a perceived threat to the group and Ricks leadership, just as much as the soldiers posed a perceived threat to Woodbury and it's leadership.
those are not solid examples though. hitchhiker was shady as ****. who the hell yells that loud alone and doesn't die? he made himself look like a total trap. rick was also off his rockers at the time and only became sane again after michonne told him it's okay that he sees things.

rick also didn't drive tyrese away. he was screaming in reference to lori. everyone took it the wrong way because nobody sees lori except crazy rick.

rick didn't outright kill merle in the woods and outright let him go, governor killed the entire national guard team betraying their trust.

i'm really not buying your sell that "Any good leader would have eliminated any threats to his authority" either. back at his farm, hersel took in the entire massive rick team, even if only temporarily. he also wanted to convince rick to let big bubba tyrese join. diplomatic means is always better if the other side is not outright hostile. it's just like michonne is starting to learn: it's tough to go it alone. it's also tough to go it as a lone team too. having allies is important, as another way to look at it: i mean how many society who has treated every threat with murder has survived to this day? are they prospering any better than we are? there is a benefit to networking and you can't do that if you kill every capable entity you meet.

going back to the same guy, rick, who you're using in multiple examples also helped morgan. he didn't have to. carl didn't want to, neither did michonne.

even if apathy is the way, it doesn't justify governor killing random people the way the governor did. there's a big difference between what governor did and what rick did. governor killed every threat. rick left hitchhiker alone. hell even merle left michonne alone. it should be noted they didn't necessarily leave them to die, they simply have seen enough examples of people who survived fine alone. they even just met one: andrea.
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Before the first day Velcor said let there be Heinous and it was true. And then Heinous said "Let there be God" and it was true. And it was good
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Old 03-12-2013, 05:06 PM   #1672 (permalink)
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Not only did he not allow them in he actively sought them out in order to take what they had and killed them as the easiest way to do this.

Sorry. If humanity has to discard all morality in order to survive I would prefer it did not.

I am not defending all of Rick's actions either for the record.

Edit: That being said it is far different than leaving Merle, and his gear, alone in the woods. Merle had attacked members of the group. Nothing about the behavior of the soldiers indicated they were a danger.
It's easy to be moral and judge morality when we live the way we do. And it isn't just Rick, there were two other people in the car in the hitchiker scene. In a polite society they would have discussed it and most likely stopped. But it's not. It's not a democracy either. Shane broke societal rules by shooting the fat guy as bait. Was he wrong or just smarter because he thought of it first? He lived, at least that day. Even Hershel originally told Rick and the others that they were going to have to leave as he felt they were a threat to his family. Had all heck not broken loose would he have allowed them to stay?

And I'm not diagreeing that Merle isn't a worthless POS, but he is a human being. Leaving him in the woods was as good as sentencing him to death. Who is Rick to make that decision? He's the leader making decisions that have to be made to have his group survive. But morally, isn't it as corrupt?

In regards to attacking the soldiers... yeah so? Should they have just waited for the squad to get their crap together, organize and possibly take the town over? As mentioned, any good leader is proactive if eliminating threats, not reactive. And my point is, that simply being soldiers made them a threat. They weren't soldiers, they were a competing group who may or may not have wanted to take Woodbury for their own. How do we know that this was the first group of soldiers to come calling? Maybe others had come before pretending to want to help. I'm sure they have patrolled walls for a reason, not just walkers.
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Old 03-12-2013, 05:12 PM   #1673 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by OPBN View Post
It's easy to be moral and judge morality when we live the way we do. And it isn't just Rick, there were two other people in the car in the hitchiker scene. In a polite society they would have discussed it and most likely stopped. But it's not. It's not a democracy either. Shane broke societal rules by shooting the fat guy as bait. Was he wrong or just smarter because he thought of it first? He lived, at least that day. Even Hershel originally told Rick and the others that they were going to have to leave as he felt they were a threat to his family. Had all heck not broken loose would he have allowed them to stay?

And I'm not diagreeing that Merle isn't a worthless POS, but he is a human being. Leaving him in the woods was as good as sentencing him to death. Who is Rick to make that decision? He's the leader making decisions that have to be made to have his group survive. But morally, isn't it as corrupt?

In regards to attacking the soldiers... yeah so? Should they have just waited for the squad to get their crap together, organize and possibly take the town over? As mentioned, any good leader is proactive if eliminating threats, not reactive. And my point is, that simply being soldiers made them a threat. They weren't soldiers, they were a competing group who may or may not have wanted to take Woodbury for their own. How do we know that this was the first group of soldiers to come calling? Maybe others had come before pretending to want to help. I'm sure they have patrolled walls for a reason, not just walkers.
the national guard pilot who the governor rescued was even grateful, then they went out of their way to kill the national guards. the guards have not even shown themselves to be hostile yet, in fact they were willing to accept a white flag and the governor killed them anyway. that's not good leadership. that's paranoia.
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Before the first day Velcor said let there be Heinous and it was true. And then Heinous said "Let there be God" and it was true. And it was good
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Old 03-12-2013, 05:14 PM   #1674 (permalink)
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How come there are never kid walkers. I have heard producers of the show say they include details on purpose to be realistic. If you want to be realistic, not every walker is an adult.

Sorry, just one of the 'unrealistic' things that bothers me even more when I hear show creators say they take the time to be 'realistic'

Oh, and I hate dead end actions. Like when the prisoner dude was 'fixing the generator' for two episodes. When he came back into the show they never mentioned if he fixed it. Then he got shot in the face. That wasnt 'realistic' that was, hey what are we gonna do with random prisoner dude that we need to not be around for a few episodes....oh i know, we'll say he's 'fixing the generator'

whatever...end rant on my problems with the show.

continue...
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Old 03-12-2013, 05:20 PM   #1675 (permalink)
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those are not solid examples though. hitchhiker was shady as ****. who the hell yells that loud alone and doesn't die? he made himself look like a total trap. rick was also off his rockers at the time and only became sane again after michonne told him it's okay that he sees things.
I didn't see the hitchhiker as shady. I saw him as desperate to live.

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Originally Posted by heinous
rick also didn't drive tyrese away. he was screaming in reference to lori. everyone took it the wrong way because nobody sees lori except crazy rick.
Probably somewhat true.

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Originally Posted by Heinous
rick didn't outright kill merle in the woods and outright let him go, governor killed the entire national guard team betraying their trust.
See above. Without knowing full towns history, how do you trust anyone?

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Originally Posted by Heinous
i'm really not buying your sell that "Any good leader would have eliminated any threats to his authority" either. back at his farm, hersel took in the entire massive rick team, even if only temporarily. he also wanted to convince rick to let big bubba tyrese join. diplomatic means is always better if the other side is not outright hostile. it's just like michonne is starting to learn: it's tough to go it alone. it's also tough to go it as a lone team too. having allies is important, as another way to look at it: i mean how many society who has treated every threat with murder has survived to this day? are they prospering any better than we are? there is a benefit to networking and you can't do that if you kill every capable entity you meet.
No just the ones carrying guns that are trained to kill and pose a threat to your authority in a zombie apocolypse

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Originally Posted by Heinous
going back to the same guy, rick, who you're using in multiple examples also helped morgan. he didn't have to. carl didn't want to, neither did michonne.
Rick viewed Morgan as a friend that helped him. Probably also saw him as a potential asset. Had Morgan been anyone else Rick would have done him himself.

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Originally Posted by Heinous
even if apathy is the way, it doesn't justify governor killing random people the way the governor did. there's a big difference between what governor did and what rick did. governor killed every threat. rick left hitchhiker alone. hell even merle left michonne alone. it should be noted they didn't necessarily leave them to die, they simply have seen enough examples of people who survived fine alone. they even just met one: andrea.
By our standards, yes. But these aren't our standards. And I think that's the point. They are no more than animals in some aspects. How did Andrea survive alone? I thought she met up with Michone who essentially kept her save more or less?
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Old 03-12-2013, 05:21 PM   #1676 (permalink)
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Leaving him in the woods was as good as sentencing him to death. .
You mean the guy who cut off his own hand and escaped from a locked roof, surrounded by walkers, cauterizing it along the way and now has a knife for a hand? Yeah, he's a total p*ssy.

Society has collapsed. Live life as close to the "old" moral code as possible but suspect everybody and everything first.

Soldiers;
They had no moral code. Threat to Governor as they were well trained/armed, had unit cohesion and may have decided they liked to rape and pillage - see 28 days later.

They had the "old" moral code - they wouldn't put up with his **** and could have overthrown his leadership.
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Old 03-12-2013, 05:21 PM   #1677 (permalink)
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the national guard pilot who the governor rescued was even grateful, then they went out of their way to kill the national guards. the guards have not even shown themselves to be hostile yet, in fact they were willing to accept a white flag and the governor killed them anyway. that's not good leadership. that's paranoia.
Who's alive? The pilot of the governor? Oh yeah, the paranoid guy. /thread.
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Old 03-12-2013, 05:24 PM   #1678 (permalink)
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You mean the guy who cut off his own hand and escaped from a locked roof, surrounded by walkers, cauterizing it along the way and now has a knife for a hand? Yeah, he's a total p*ssy.
LOL, yeah I'll give you that one.
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Old 03-12-2013, 05:28 PM   #1679 (permalink)
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How come there are never kid walkers. I have heard producers of the show say they include details on purpose to be realistic. If you want to be realistic, not every walker is an adult.
Opening scene of the series was Rick coming across a little girl walker and blowing her head off. My 14 year old daughter left the room and we had a hard time deciding whether to watch another episode.

Also, Carols daughter was a walker and so was the governors daughter. It's not that they haven't had them, just not as many of them. Surprised we haven't seen any baby crawlers though.....
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Old 03-12-2013, 05:30 PM   #1680 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by OPBN View Post
Opening scene of the series was Rick coming across a little girl walker and blowing her head off. My 14 year old daughter left the room and we had a hard time deciding whether to watch another episode.

Also, Carols daughter was a walker and so was the governors daughter. It's not that they haven't had them, just not as many of them. Surprised we haven't seen any baby crawlers though.....
Yeah, those were kinda for effect and setting a certain scene type thing. I meant the 100 random ones either walking around or getting killed in every episode. there would be kids too. I understand they cant bash in heads of 10 year olds every show. just saying...for realism, they would be around in general.
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