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Old 09-17-2012, 09:37 AM   #21 (permalink)
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All this pump stuff is just a fade. It will blow over once the economy comes back.

I am kidding. Nothing ruins pump play like pump players who bitches about uneven playing field instead of just playing. After all you choose pump, get over it.
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Old 09-17-2012, 10:19 AM   #22 (permalink)
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So my favorite phantom has a rainman undercocking kit on it. Does that make it a "sniper"? Or is the fundamentals of how the internals work significantly different?
The internals do have distinct layouts. In theory they operate in the same way, but the layout of the internals has a real impact on the gas expansion. How you pump or cock them is not usually significant.

The nelson is all in-line, with the hammer, bolt, and valve all in one compact unit. Sheridans, snipers, cockers, etc. have the bolt on top of the valve and hammer, and they are reversed with the gas coming in the front of the marker body instead of the rear.

The compact nature of the nelson setup makes it good for high pressure CO2. Little expansion is wasted inside the marker. As you start to hang regulators, bottles and hoses off of a nelson, it starts to get big and perform like any other marker.

The cocker valve marker can be setup with lots of body volume and additional parts for tuning and guiding the pump arm. You can get valve pressures down around 200 psi (air fed), with light springs and smooth actions to match.

You can force either valve arrangement toward the other end, they just have natural layout tendencies for efficiencies and stock parts.

Pump-mags are very different. They allow you to make a very compact and regulated pump. They are usually about the weight of a regulated cocker and about the same shot-to-shot consistency. They are difficult to build an autotrigger for. However, being open bolt, rollouts and double feeds are not an issue so your one, non-autotrigger shot tends to always be there when you need it.
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Old 09-17-2012, 11:04 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Pump-mags are very different. They allow you to make a very compact and regulated pump. They are usually about the weight of a regulated cocker and about the same shot-to-shot consistency. They are difficult to build an autotrigger for. However, being open bolt, rollouts and double feeds are not an issue so your one, non-autotrigger shot tends to always be there when you need it.
The pump mag sounds really nice, but I don't find many people talking about them. Do they have significant draw backs besides auto trigger?
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Old 09-17-2012, 11:18 AM   #24 (permalink)
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The pump mag sounds really nice, but I don't find many people talking about them. Do they have significant draw backs besides auto trigger?
I don't think they are legal in pump tournaments.
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Old 09-17-2012, 12:31 PM   #25 (permalink)
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^^^

Some tournaments don't like the pump stroke (too light), but pump-mags don't like being short stroked (it may work anyway) and with no autotrigger some promoters don't care. If you don't return the pump all the way forward, the bolt can hit the pump rod and cause low velocity, or worse, jump the rod and hang up in front of the rod tip. My son can do it all, but he can shoot his pump mag faster than I can autotrigger anything.

They are also on the heavy side for their size (small), and not very efficient for CO2 use without reducing the volume in the dump chamber. They usually end up as open class, where they have to compete with autotriggers, but again, it depends on the promoter.

For rec ball and scenarios they are pretty neat when you can afford to make and take your shots. Also, the trigger lets you know when the bolt is back and ready to go. It's like a "loaded" indicator, so you just have to see if you have a ball in the feed neck to be sure it's ready to go. That's handy when you lolly around between engagements on the field.

One down side of the open bolt is that you don't get to feel the ball get pushed into a snug barrel. I distinctly miss that sometimes.

Pump mags have a place in my collection, but if you want to talk to a real fan, pm need4reebs. Also, pump mags tend to win the "Classic" division of the Mag-Of-The-Month contests on Automags.org, so you can find a lot of fancy pump mags in the winners thread.
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Old 09-17-2012, 01:19 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Quote:
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The early autocockers were pumps that Glenn Palmer figured out how to make fire semi.
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Old 09-17-2012, 01:40 PM   #27 (permalink)
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^Thanks, I was about to post the same...
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Old 09-17-2012, 02:09 PM   #28 (permalink)
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1. No your phantom with an undercocking kit is not a "sniper". Sniper is used to refer to Sheridan valve stacked tube pump guns, IE CCM, Empire Sniper.

2. A lot of people prefer Sheridan style guns because they are generally bigger and heavier, more steady, then Nelson style guns. I find this makes open class easier, I shoot a CCM S6. Nelson guns generally get better co2 effiency so they are prefered for stock class.

3. A pump mag is basically a broken Automag. There is a wave spring placed behind the bolt causing the gun not to reset. A pump handle is added to push the bolt back to lock it onto the sear. They basically have a pump stroke that has no resistance until the last 1/8th of an inch. They aren't made anymore, you can find pump kits around if you look. You do have to have your rail and body milled inorder for it to work, a channel for the pump rod is milled in the rail and a window in the body.
do note however that recently, it has been showed that a sniper with a regulator running on 12g CO2 can b VERY efficient getting shot counts from high 30s to low 40s.
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Old 09-17-2012, 02:17 PM   #29 (permalink)
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That just slid right on by me. I'll have to blame Mr. Palmer because he has been so consistent with the sheridan base (not because I'm old). I saw one of his double barrel semi rifles before I ever saw an autococker, but whenever anyone says autococker I have to think of Orr.
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Old 09-17-2012, 02:20 PM   #30 (permalink)
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That just slid right on by me. I'll have to blame Mr. Palmer because he has been so consistent with the sheridan base (not because I'm old). I saw one of his double barrel semi rifles before I ever saw an autococker, but whenever anyone says autococker I have to think of Orr.
Being local to, and having heard The Rant from The Man himself, there's no doubt who invented what.
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