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-   -   Please explain the pump universe (http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/new-sport/213613-please-explain-pump-universe.html)

jellyghost 09-15-2012 09:06 PM

Please explain the pump universe
 
I have been playing paintball for a few months, and my first guns have been phantoms. Just by looking, I generally understand the logic of a "nelson" style pump gun because of my experience with phantoms. I love the phantoms, and I generally use them for open class play.
Can someone point me towards a general explanation of pump guns other than "nelson" style pumps?
I am completely confused by "autocockers" turned into pumps (that seems backwards).
I look at countless pictures on the BST threads, and I just appreciate the colors. How do you tell quality on the wide variety of autococker pump guns? Are these guns much harder to maintain than a phantom? Why would someone prefer these guns?
Why would someone say "CCM ruined pump play?"

super_stanchy 09-15-2012 09:16 PM

a pumped autococker "sniper" has less to mess with compared to a mech cocker
the pump eliminates the entire pneumatic setup and makes it all manual.

all you have to worry about on them is your reg input pressure, and your spring tension (your IVG) once they are dialed in, set it and forget it, give it a cleaning when you fill it with dirt, done.

quality is based off of the manufacturer/time frame

lower end manufacturers.....
psycobalistics (superbolt/lightnings)

higher end manufacturers/bodies
wgp Oracles
wgp karni's

and then you get the older/rarer gear
PE cockers
ripper bodies
etc

preference?
they are a much more stable open class pump
the body is much more rigid

they are not as gas efficient, thats why phantoms are stock class dream guns


CCM recreated the autotrigger, they perfected it and it has double/tripled the rate of fire and now pump speedball is a paint throwing firefight

it could be debated to say they ruined pump, in my opinion they perfected it and made it much more flashy and intense!

Talfuchre 09-15-2012 09:19 PM

You might want to watch my tech video series in the CCM forum on any marker you have intrigued in. It will take the mystery out of the marker now that you know how to use a Nelson based marker.

TF

socalpumpballer 09-15-2012 09:23 PM

sheridan style valve - sheridans, palmers, autococker(snipers), CCMs
pump mags- automag turned pump
sterlings- nelson/sheridan hybrid

autocockers started out as snipers (auto cocker with a pump kit) they are more user friendly as pumps and are easy to turn into pumps so why not? and the are more ergonomically similar to semis so making the switch in playing styles is easy.

quality depends on the parts and how they function, research will help with that. the lost of cocker/sniper parts is infinite and no one could sit and explain every part ever made to you.

maintaining a sniper is super easy, nelson is a more simple system, but a working sniper rarely fails once setup.

people would prefer these guns for, customization, ease of use.

ccm guns are top of the line in terms of sheridan based technology, polished everything light springs, Auto trigger, quality made. which ultimately makes them faster than most mech semis, thus silly kids get all butt hurt that a pump can shoot fast.



to add to SSC post there are a number of ways to setup a sniper internally, ccms however arnt the most gas efficient. which really doesnt matter because they were made to be open class pumps anyways.
palmers makes really gas efficient sheridans style guns that rival phantoms in terms of 12gram or co2

Talfuchre 09-15-2012 09:37 PM

Can I say....

I agree that CCM is on the top end of sheridan valve style markers - but in terms of taking the true sheridan platform and squeezing every bit out of - that honor, IMO, belongs to Palmers.

I shot a Phantom for years - and they have a special place in my heart - but when playing open class - I didn't want a marker that had a pump that wrapped around the barrel. It simply moved more when playing open class style.

This is, of course, of little consideration when playing one ball at a time, especially stock class. Again, why the Phantom is a great Stock Class Marker - probably - the best bang for your buck.

TF

Saint_TGM 09-15-2012 09:40 PM

The early autocockers were pumps that someone (Bud Orr IIRC) figured out how to make fire semi. Now that conversion in the opinion of some was very complex albeit very cool, and Autockers were considered by many to be the go-to semi of the day...like way back in the mid nineties. (There was also a group of raving lunatics who operated under the delusion that somehow the Automag was the go-to semi of the day, but I digress... O those were the heady days of the Cocker vs. Mag debates! :ROTFL:) With the advent of electropneumatics, the Cocker fell out of vogue, except perhaps for die-hard old schoolers, collectors, and pumpers, because the base of the marker really does make a great pump. All you have to do is remove the front pneumatics, replace them with a pump kit et voila, you have a decent pump, usually on the cheap. The CCM family of markers are essentially the same style of bodies, except for very well made and assembled with loving care. The also look really nice, if you're into that kind of thing. I'm not sure why CCM has "ruined pump." I certainly don't think they have, but would love to hear that argument. I own a CCM T2, and an old "Autococker" pump, which strict conventions of nomenclature dictate that I call a "Sniper." Whatever. It began life as an Autococker, and now is my back-up pump marker, (which I am converting into a stock-class setup right now.) I'm not really sure about the whole "Nelson" and "Sheridan" question, except I believe they were the early inventors of two of the main styles of early pump guns. The "autococker" style is one, but I'm not sure which. It refers to the physical construction and operation of the marker. Someone far wiser and more well-informed that I will have to educate you there... Some good questions; some that I also would love to see answered. Thoughts?

big jim 09-15-2012 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talfuchre (Post 2476005)
Can I say....

I agree that CCM is on the top end of sheridan valve style markers

TF

You guys arn't just trying to get on Bill's good side are you?

jellyghost 09-15-2012 09:52 PM

So my favorite phantom has a rainman undercocking kit on it. Does that make it a "sniper"? Or is the fundamentals of how the internals work significantly different?

So CCM, Palmer, and a variety of converted autocockers are usually considered the great open class guns. While Phantoms and other nelsons tend to be better stock class guns?

What is a pump mag, and what is the advantage of that setup? Does anyone make new pump mags?

paintballedbackin88 09-15-2012 10:03 PM

For Mootho, and others who would like to know more. Here is a link to the History of paintball gear, as presented by paintball x3.
Gear History 1981-2000

I preferred nelson based marker back in the late 80's due to lighter weight, better air efficiency, and user accessibility vs the sheridan based pgp, which needed a proprietary valve tool and had a lead gasket that needed to be replaced every time the valve had to be pulled.

My only complaint about my early nelson based pumps was frequent cup seal failure, broken #4 and #6 power tubes, and losing/stripping the brass field strip screws, usually the ones that secured the pump arms to the hammer.

BLachance75 09-15-2012 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jellyghost (Post 2476019)
So my favorite phantom has a rainman undercocking kit on it. Does that make it a "sniper"? Or is the fundamentals of how the internals work significantly different?

So CCM, Palmer, and a variety of converted autocockers are usually considered the great open class guns. While Phantoms and other nelsons tend to be better stock class guns?

What is a pump mag, and what is the advantage of that setup? Does anyone make new pump mags?

1. No your phantom with an undercocking kit is not a "sniper". Sniper is used to refer to Sheridan valve stacked tube pump guns, IE CCM, Empire Sniper.

2. A lot of people prefer Sheridan style guns because they are generally bigger and heavier, more steady, then Nelson style guns. I find this makes open class easier, I shoot a CCM S6. Nelson guns generally get better co2 effiency so they are prefered for stock class.

3. A pump mag is basically a broken Automag. There is a wave spring placed behind the bolt causing the gun not to reset. A pump handle is added to push the bolt back to lock it onto the sear. They basically have a pump stroke that has no resistance until the last 1/8th of an inch. They aren't made anymore, you can find pump kits around if you look. You do have to have your rail and body milled inorder for it to work, a channel for the pump rod is milled in the rail and a window in the body.


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