mcarterbrown.com  

Paintball News The latest in paintball news brought to you by the oldest independent publication in paintball and the best paintball site on the web - The Paintball News and MCB

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 11-08-2013, 03:08 PM   #841 (permalink)
Active Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013

We have a Fuzzy's Tacos just around the corner. Even the cook knows us...
__________________
josh@j4pb.com
www.j4paintball.com

J4 Paintball on Facebook
J4 Paintball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2013, 12:52 AM   #842 (permalink)
Post Whore
 
Nobody's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: South Jersey

smack, smack, smack...

Josh will i have to call the police for the assault charges?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by tymcneer View Post
Watching the grass blow in the wind sometimes causes it to shift from red to green to red and keep repeating itself. Makes my acid using friends jealous

Brand New Furious Harnesses for ICD electros
Best place for all things ICD
MCB_feedback
AO_feedback
Nobody is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2013, 01:39 PM   #843 (permalink)
MCB Member
 
big jim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Holdrege Nebraska

Quote:
Originally Posted by J4 Paintball View Post
believe me, anything can be over thought with them. Even ordering lunch.

The mistake is thinking you are not over thinking it.
Hold on, I resemble that remark!
__________________
Big Jim

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Furious View Post
You'll have a tough time finding a nicer group of people on the internet(even if our opinions all suck).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitalsilence View Post
I've dealt with canadians several times and I usually undercharge by 2-5 dollars cause I feel bad for them sometimes. Just my 2cents.

feedback http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/f...k-big-jim.html
big jim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2013, 02:37 PM   #844 (permalink)
P0E
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: P0E

tl;dr?

Sorry to keep you anxiously waiting. Life's priorities you know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by J4 Paintball View Post
..it is a paintball gun, ... It isn't rocket science.
The mindset.

Quote:
Originally Posted by J4 Paintball View Post
...
At 42cps the gun cycled without any noticeable change in firing signature, ..
...
To make clear..
You're saying evidence in support of your assumptions is entirely limited to the fact you could not hear a difference when dry firing up to 42cps?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by J4 Paintball View Post
Recharge of the reg was fine at 42cps, so it would be fine at 25bps, ...
Only way to know that is if you actually used a pressure sensor and graphed it, but based on the "so it would be fine at 25bps" comment, I have to assume you never measured this with paint!? ..if even without.

"60cps reg that vents at mach 2.5" is like saying "1000mpg wheel that free falls at 200MPH". There are so many assumptions and missing variables in that statement, I would be ashamed to post it. It's simply bombastic.


Quote:
Originally Posted by J4 Paintball View Post
Since we have done testing with eyes OFF, with paint, over a chrony, and not had drop off, at 20+cps, I think most of the rest of your assumptions are mute. (moot?)

Eyes would slow down the gun, not speed it up. Running eyes off means it is directly an input of the timing - not slowed down to make it feed.
There you go again mixing "drop off","with paint" and "cps". Please stop beating around the bush and tell us what you actually tested and how. It sounds like you simply fired a bunch of balls while trying to get the thing to function and now like to imagine it operates as you would like.

Eyes DO slow down the gun. I've never said otherwise. In fact, I'll do you a solid and explain how and why it's more important to test with eyes ON than OFF.

Solenoids take a notable time to actuate. The fastest (not likely yours) take >5ms to mostly turn on and >5ms to mostly turn off. Total cycle time isn't simply turn-on + turn-off time either. Because of various factors like residual magnetic flux and residual spool momentum there needs to be a delay between toggling. Often you'll see manufacturer's maximum operating frequencies 2x to 5x slower than what the response time would lead you to believe is capable.

When eyes are off, any solenoid delay is hidden by activating the solenoid before the previous cycle has completed. When the eyes are on, this solenoid delay is added to the marker's total cycle time. Many times hoppers are incorrectly blamed for slow on-gun/eyes-on performance when in fact the solenoid delay can play an equally large role.

Finally, solenoids in paintball markers are never driven properly and I have never seen one turned off in less than 15ms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by J4 Paintball View Post
...Testing is done by adjusting up till there is failure ...
If you had my experience (20+ years) [..], you can tell when there is shoot down...
What failed? I'm more familiar with structured testing involving data collection and iterative experimentation to arrive at a predetermined goal or unexpected discovery. Your method is probably good too.

Like I said earlier, it's fine if you were just 'wingin' it. Only guessing as to the functional dynamics and performance. No judgement there. Just wanted to make sure I understood correctly where your assumptions were coming from in the off chance you had data to back it up.

I wouldn't consider 20+ years experience as a manager/engineering-enthusiast as support for arguments that you can hear the slightest "shootdown" from a marker cycling without paint though. It actually just sounds ridiculous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by J4 Paintball View Post
The mistake is thinking you are not over thinking it.
An engineer understands that every project is a series of compromises refined as a function of time. Therefore time is maximized for each decision they care about (lunch). It's the very reason engineers appear to be miracle workers at the 11th hour. They simply compromise more as the deadline approaches. There's no such thing as "over thinking", although I can see how poor project planning can be interpreted as such.

Quote:
Originally Posted by J4 Paintball View Post
..anything can be over thought with them[engineers]. Even ordering lunch.
This must be a managing mindset. My manager says the same things..

"kill the engineers and ship it"...
"An engineer is someone who's good with math, but doesn't have the personality of an accountant...." he says.

Understand that it is simply because of our previous interactions where it was crystal clear you never took a first year thermodynamics class and struggle with engineering basics that I question your analysis of the dynamics over my own interpretations. Real, measured data would help advance this discussion further.

To put this to bed, maybe you could pay someone to graph each shot's velocity (starting with the very first) at 15bps with eyes on? I'm honestly surprised you never did any real testing like this earlier.

Nice milling BTW.
P0E is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2013, 12:15 PM   #845 (permalink)
MCB Member
 
Spider!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Houston, TX

I got to poke around on the prototypes this weekend. It not only feels like a skinny spool gun, but the forces are light for a fast spool. It's an odd feel when you watch the bolt top (that looks like a poppet gun). I liked the o-ring arrangement. I particularly liked the chamfers on the reg stem, the internal air flow and air volume capacity.

We were also playing with a few 2k-x timmies (1 2k2, 1 2k5 dragon, 1 alias) this weekend that have all been up into the 20+ bps range many times in their lives. Given their hose arrangements, internals, and overall decent efficiency, I can see a Torque running into the 20s reliably with easy maintenance.

The only question I have left, that I forgot to ask, was about the overall life expectancy of the final solenoid selection. I don't think that was settled (?) anyway. That's a piece that can use destructive testing at a given service pressure and cycle rate. Maybe there are some clues to that back up the thread that I missed.

It was a pleasure to meet the J4 crew.
__________________
My Feedback
Spider! is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2013, 02:47 PM   #846 (permalink)
Active Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013

Hey Spider! LOVE getting to get you guys hands on with the gun -

The Solenoid itself is the 200psi Mac33 - fairly well known, solid unit. I think if we change to anything it will be a MAC Bullet style noid, similar to what PE is doing, or working on our own unit. We did have one 'noid go down in testing, the reason we had issues this weekend actually!

The switch, a simple test unit, has been the part that has shown the most wear. We have had a few generations of that, and was most likely the longest part we worked on.

Using raw aluminum to see what accelerated wear issues we would have we have found the last switch wears out after 60,000-110,000 cycles or so, and have redesigned it to be more durable, even though at that point with an anodized surface it should last quite a bit longer. We added some wear surfaces that should last plenty long, plus the aluminum will be sealed, and it won't wear off into the process.

The drivetrains have ran pretty hard for the last 4 months - and we haven't had to replace any o-rings in them. It has only been the switch.
__________________
josh@j4pb.com
www.j4paintball.com

J4 Paintball on Facebook
J4 Paintball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2013, 07:02 PM   #847 (permalink)
Active Member
 
Instien'spaintball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: H'ville, Mo. 64701

Thanks for the Update Josh.
What Detent did you end up going with?
__________________
Proud J4 PAINTBALL DEALER!
ASK ME ABOUT ORDERING a TORQUE today.

http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/d...ll-torque.html

Lohman446 -I have absolutely zero interest in "saving" your "sport". Your "sport" has destroyed my game.
cjottawa -Know what would make paintball affordable and get more people involved? SHOOTING LESS.

www.280paintball.com great place to play in K.C. Mo.

http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/f...-feedback.html
Instien'spaintball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2013, 01:42 PM   #848 (permalink)
Active Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013

We are going to be running the Exalt one, the 'Bridge' - it just is so nice on paint.
__________________
josh@j4pb.com
www.j4paintball.com

J4 Paintball on Facebook
J4 Paintball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2013, 02:09 PM   #849 (permalink)
Post Whore
 
jdlarson11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010

where can i preorder one?
jdlarson11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2013, 02:48 PM   #850 (permalink)
Active Member
 
Instien'spaintball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: H'ville, Mo. 64701

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdlarson11 View Post
where can i preorder one?
From ME
text me at eight one six-738-9 one 78.
or you could order from that other guy!
__________________
Proud J4 PAINTBALL DEALER!
ASK ME ABOUT ORDERING a TORQUE today.

http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/d...ll-torque.html

Lohman446 -I have absolutely zero interest in "saving" your "sport". Your "sport" has destroyed my game.
cjottawa -Know what would make paintball affordable and get more people involved? SHOOTING LESS.

www.280paintball.com great place to play in K.C. Mo.

http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/f...-feedback.html
Instien'spaintball is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

  mcarterbrown.com » General » Paintball News

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:43 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO
© MCB Network LLC