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Old 02-04-2009, 01:22 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Slam vs. Bucket vs. Lever vs. In Grip 12gm?

This question is directed primarily at B, but anyone with an opinion feel free to chime in.

With all the talk on the boards, both from the manufacture and the player is a rear bucker changer actually more efficient than an in grip direct line? For that matter, why is the slammer considered the least efficient means of delivery? Can one not shoot it till it gets that lower “pop” then swap? Or is it just more fun to see that sucker sail away?

Of all the delivery systems it is apparent why a lower bottom line similar to the old school California Style setups is just not an option. Next you have the CCI VSC setup. It looks real cool but how many shots can someone really lose in the line, one, two, five shots? Does it really matter? Its fast as heck, very easy to use and second to none.



In viewing the different delivery systems for 12 grams I have to ponder what are people thinking? Bucket changer? C’mon no way.
Having a bit of time on my side (the wife thinks I am still doing our tax return). I wanted to take a non-scientific look at what’s in my gear bag.

Pictured here are the SI rear ASA, the SI 12 gm lever and the 12 gm seal for my Dux.



In looking at all three delivery systems I just don’t see how some mfg.’s claim that a bucket changer is more efficient. I did however notice the ASA on this very special Duck is quite short but still not shorter than an in grip setup.



In grip setup: Some might think air is lost in the chamber however no gas enters the chamber due to the pressure seal.





Line to valve:



Actual line:



So the question begs to be answered how can a bucket changer be more efficient than an almost direct tap into the valve? I have a feeling neither delivery system has a huge advantage over the other and is really a matter of aesthetics rather than function.

In the end it is really a matter of knowing your equipment, having fun fine tuning, or being anal by taking notes of spring combos vs. weather conditions vs. function (ala’ Steve Davidson). I know that little dude has a chart somewhere with all the answers. He really is the MONK of old school paintball and is not anal at all.

For me its using RAP4 12 grams consistantly. Do they have more Co2 probably not but they seem consistant and they are camo. I use the same spring set up most days but arrive early enough to play around at the chrono. My real secret is not shooting 280 but just under. I have a suspicion that that 1 or 2 FPS has more to do with it than I will ever know.

A few shots here or there won’t kill a seasoned 12gm player but not taking the time to know when to swap will most assuredly sink a 12gm newbie. Learn the "PoP when to Swap" every marker has one.

The good news is, in the very near future a few lucky MCB’ers not named DSA will be testing out the above theory with their new Slammer 's and Bucket changers???

We will have to revisit this real soon but for now your thoughts.
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Last edited by DSA; 02-04-2009 at 01:28 AM.
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Old 02-04-2009, 01:42 AM   #2 (permalink)
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I've had the same thoughts lately. I can see what a BBA is more efficient than a VSC, but the Redux in handle changer does dump straight into the valve.

My thoughts are that people prefer the BBA for ease of changing 12grams, and the efficiency aspect has just been assumed because of markers like the minicomp that are more efficiency than their VSC counterparts. Meaning that a BBA isn't more efficient than the in handle changer.
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Old 02-04-2009, 01:45 AM   #3 (permalink)
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i sooo lust for a duck ...

but on topic ... in real game play ... those 1-3 extra shots never really mattered to me...

can i go play now?
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Old 02-04-2009, 01:48 AM   #4 (permalink)
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i can't see how it would help..but could it be the angle of the 12 gram? as in the angle of the liquid in the 12 gram? or maybe it's the rocking motion? I don't know either...
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Old 02-04-2009, 03:15 AM   #5 (permalink)
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that's a good topic for discussion Eric. i'm curious to know too. we'll see soon when the slams come in.

i think maybe there is a fine line between not enough and too much co2 expansion.
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Ok choochie, the duck is not troubled, it's dated. The technology is old, it's like 8mm stop motion film reels, nothing will ever replace them, they are nostalgic one of a kind but for today's youth the expectations are CGI.
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Old 02-04-2009, 10:06 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:

i think maybe there is a fine line between not enough and too much co2 expansion.
I never thought of it that way. Great point. Just maybe the direct line is too direct.
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Old 02-04-2009, 10:42 AM   #7 (permalink)
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I would support that statement (c6quad's), as well as the rationale that CO2 loses energy going through sharp turns (if I remember correctly).

And I do support the manufacturer's claims, to a degree. When the in-handle Redux barely breaks 20 shots, and my BBA Box Gun can get nearly double that, I start to believe. (That was NOT a "vs." or "my gun is better than yours" statement, just an anecdote, as they are two different guns and cannot be accurately compared).

And the difference between BBA and VSC on a Phantom is apparently only a shot or two. (EDIT: THIS I find interesting. Why would a system with 4x the distance to the valve seemingly provide more shots than in-handle directly into the valve?)
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Old 02-04-2009, 10:45 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Possibly not enough room to get the CO2 to the correct volume for that sweet spot. DSA, do you know who makes the RAP4 12grams? Have any access to a micrometer, to see how consistency in size they are, perhaps weigh a batch with a postal scale to see constancy there?
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Old 02-04-2009, 10:47 AM   #9 (permalink)
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As a side note, I am VERY interested in seeing a comprehensive comparison of the current and two future Redux configurations.
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Old 02-04-2009, 10:55 AM   #10 (permalink)
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For me, it's all about what's easiest for me to use. Efficiency matters, but only to a point-say 25 or more shots per 12g. I'd gladly sacrifice 1-5 shots per 12g for a quicker/easier changeout. I've been using a dropout for the last few months, and I'm really liking it. Honestly, I rarely use the last few shots in the 12g, I change it when it's convenient for me. In the last year I can only remember being caught empty once, an it was my fault. Usually, I end up changing out between games or rarely in-game when I have a moment where there's a lull in the action. Every time I change, I think to myself "just wasted 5-10-15 shots, oh well" I think that a lot of the interest from most people in lever/slam/pump changers is because they're cool and different, and there's nothing wrong with that.
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