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Mag Fed A special section just for all your magazine fed guns and projects

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Old 10-14-2013, 04:46 PM   #1 (permalink)
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An Existential Question About MagFed...

An interesting debate started up on PBN about 'MagFed' play. The discussion seems to have peetered out and I am still left with questions, mainly two;

What is the Definition of 'MagFed'?
What is the Purpose of 'MagFed'?

I don't think these questions are quite as easy to answer as they seem.

Magfed paintball intrigues me, I like the idea, but I don't like the practical outcome...I Tried! I got a TPX and 10 mags and tried! But even such small gun required a whole NEW rig to carry mags in and that rig was bigger and more cumbersome than my normal loadout!

I LOVE the limited ammo style of game that is innate to Magfed play, and I also really enjoy the scenario/objective style of game that is usually played as well. And as more and more of these games are being held, I want to join in...but I want to use my pumps, or my Stickfeed Tac-One...not a big, heavy, cumbersome gun and a large vest...When I ask if I can use a pump, I get told that it is not acceptable in a 'MagFed' only game...

Well Flounder asked this question,

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Flounder View Post
How do you define mag-fed?

Wiki has this to say in regards to firearms (probably the closest we will find for our world of paintball)

“A magazine is an ammunition storage and feeding device within or attached to a repeating firearm. Magazines can be removable (detachable) or integral to the firearm. The magazine functions by moving the cartridges stored in the magazine into a position where they may be loaded into the chamber by the action of the firearm “

As I understand that definition any marker that holds more than one paintball is Mag-Fed. I can only think of a few markers that do not qualify by that definition.

Tube feed = mag
Hopper = mag
internal mag= mag
Cram and Jam = mag (with a clip)
This definition opens the door to EVERYTHING! Which I don't think I quite right...but I do think that there are a lot of different guns and feed systems that could and should still fit the 'MagFed' criteria.

-Mags like Dmags, Rap4 Mags, or Milsig Mags...
-Pistols such as the TPX and T8/9 family.
-Spring Fed guns,
-Stock Class
-Stickfeeds
-Cylinder fed (DRV, 3357...)

Others offered some ideas for how to define 'Magfed'

Quote:
Originally Posted by sambob117 View Post
[Rap4 Shotgun]... in the paintball community that would be considered a spring feed. Most in the paintball community would classify mag fed as having a low capacity removable magazine with build in feed system (usually spring pressure), box mags and drum mags exist for higher capacity "heavy gunners" and are often excluded from or in very limited numbers at mag fed events. Also most all mass produced mag fed is milsim. 10 round tube fed markers are classified as "stock class" but a more relavent term in this instance is "mag-friendly" since they are usually allowed at mag fed or limited ammo events.
This idea brings forth the consept that 'Magfed' must not only use “a low capacity removable magazine with build in feed system (usually spring pressure)” but must also LOOK the part of MilSim. However many guns fit EXTREMELY well into the “MilSim” world but do not qualify as 'MagFed'. Can we really say a DSG is not real enough to play in a realistic “MilSim” game?

Another definition was offered, It seemed simple at first, but complications arise if we use it. Discussion followed.

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Originally Posted by vijil View Post
Imo this is the best definition of magfed as it relates to paintball:

“A "magazine" for us is a paintball storage device attached to the marker and from which the marker is fed paintballs, that is entirely removed and replaced when the player needs to reload. “

It works because it's simple, but adequately describes what paintballers think of as magfed. So a hopper fed marker is not magfed. Nor is a stock class or a DSG. A pod is not a magazine because it is never attached to the marker. A box magazine technically is, though most ballers will simply reload the box rather than replacing the entire box as would a soldier. If one were to play hardcore milsim there is nothing stopping you from using it as a magazine in the true sense.

I don't want to add a requirement for the magazine to be spring loaded since in theory it's possible to make a magfed system without springs. Also a box mag doesn't have them.
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Originally Posted by John View Post
That would make the old Splatmasters mag-fed. It would also make any other stock class guns that use the 10 round tube instead of their own chamber "mag fed."
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Originally Posted by The Inflicted View Post
If they don't like things like the DSG or springfeed hurricanes being used, perhaps all these "serious" milsim types should start referring to their subcategory as "removable magfed."
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Flounder View Post
Then you are allowing the Cram and Jam back into the mix.

I think it is funny that from what I have seen is that mag-fed seems to be a subset of milsim. The CCM SR1 is pretty much considered milsim but not allowed in mag-fed because it is a single shot hand load.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Inflicted View Post
No.

If it doesn't have a spring, it's not a magazine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Flounder View Post
A few questions for discussion.

Is the Crossman 3357 a mag fed marker? It uses a removable cylinder to reload.

Dukie's DRV uses a similar cylinder but has a a spring feed as well. Is that mag-fed?

A Gatling gun used a top mounted magazine that was gravity fed. Is the spring necessary to qualify as a magazine?

What about Stock Class or Stickfed markers? (My personal favorite) Sure there is nothing removable or even spring fed but the action of reloading a stick feed is similar enough to changing a mag and they certainly do not offer any sort of advantage in ROF.


So are we going to make the definition of 'MagFed' something broad to encompass everything or are we going to keep it narrow and exclude some of the less popular choices?

ex. MagFed is any marker that uses an internal or external reservoir powered by a Spring/Gravity/other that contains no more than 20rnds unless its a box mag?

or.

MagFed is any marker that uses a removable reservoir powered by spring that contains no more than 20rnds...

Inflicted chimed in with this Gem!

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Inflicted View Post
The same definition is applicable to paintball as well- from a gameplay point of view the major factor of a magazine is that the spring must be retracted (or removed altogether) to load anything into the feed mechanism, temporarily disabling the gun's ability to feed. With a hopper, the upper portion of projectiles (if not all of them) are gravity-fed, so additional projectiles can simply be added on top as the gun continues to cycle.
Ah ha! I think this might be close! It lets in a lot but still disallows quite a few things that might still really fit in with the milsim look and feel.

My stickfeed is out but springfed markers like my kp2 are still in.

However using this definition means markers that used a cyclone or rip clip are also out despite looking the part. (Sort of).

I think this definition is getting closer but it still needs some work.

My next question then becomes...Is there really a point to having a hard and fast MagFed definition? Or should people focus less on the marker and load out of the player and more on the actual point of the game trying to be played. Ie. Limited paint, scenario based, missions, objectives, team work...whatever...

I think the "Want" for 'MagFed' is primarily for the 'Fun', 'cool', 'Hardcore!' factors.

Fun for sure! Changing mags is awesome! And it sure looks 'cool' and make a player feel 'Hardcore' slapping in a new mag instead of dumping paint from a tube or a pod...

Limited Paint is a result of the end product, not a reason FOR the end product as there are many easier, simpler more efficient ways to achieve limited paint usage.

I have a hard time buying the 'realism' angle however...for the simple reason that paintballs themselves do not act the same as a bullet. Never have, and never will. Firearms are designed to efficiently load bullets into the chamber and send them down range... Using a Mag to do this with paint (excluding First Strikes) is actually harder to do that with bullets...
Paintball tactics also don't equate well in the real world just as military tactics don't equate well in the paintball world. Ex. Rarely do you find a game where one side has 3+ to 1 odds advantage...


Strict definitions of anything, including 'MagFed', is going to exclude a lot of potential players. Look at the 'pure' Stock class debate.

I find this to be an interesting paradox where in 'MagFed' players want to grow their slice of the paintball game but continue to exclude willing participants with strict definitions of what is allowed to participate.



So...Now I open the floor.

What is the Definition of 'MagFed'?
What is the Purpose of 'MagFed'?
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Old 10-14-2013, 05:01 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Full disclosure: I love stilgar.

In all seriousness paintball should be inclusive to everyone. Relatively speaking it is still small and excluding people from play based on definition alone seems to have a negative impact. Limited paint = mag fed = same style and pace of play.

Let's go have fun without telling others "sorry you're not allowed."

Thanks for your time
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Just fyi everyone the answer is stock class for all questions related to paintball and to solve all paintball related problems except carbon emissions because we gotta use those 12 grams.

Double FYI for paintball rules there should be no "offer" of surrender, its either mandatory surrender at X distance when guy is behind you or no surrender and you get shot in the booty. "offer" of surrender makes for some ridiculous and dangerous john woo tactics.
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Old 10-14-2013, 06:12 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Great write-up; we were having a similar discussion on one of the UK forums running up to a magfed only game here.
The general consensus by the site playing was that tubefeds still constituted as magfed, but this led to people turning up with DM9's and so on with stickfeeds taped on.
Personally, I don't see a problem with that - magfed (at least in my opinion) is merely the promotion of a more tactical (or tacticool?) style play to make a refreshing change from the usual shoot ropes, find bunker, shoot more attrition style play you see on most UK fields.

We as a team play pistols-only, sort of taking it a step further I guess, and the reason we do it is purely for the fun factor - coming up against players with 100-200 rounds really makes you have to think about what you're using and how you're moving.
I guess the point I'm trying to make is, both types of gameplay can exist on the same field without any problems, so why make something niche like magfed even more exclusive?

As a footnote, I handload a Nelspot 007 (no tubes, just a phantom feed) and I've been told that things like that weren't allowed in magfed games. Pretty daft really.
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Old 10-14-2013, 06:18 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I was wondering along a similar vein earlier. Are QLoaders magfed? What about ATS markers with the hopper adapter installed? In that case a chain driven system loads balls from a 20 round magazine, but a classic hopper reloads the magazine (giving 220+ round max capacity).
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Old 10-14-2013, 06:26 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I prefer "limited ammo" to "mag fed"

Let that guy stick a 50 round hopper on an e-gun, but give everyone five hundred balls for the day. Or 200. Forcing constant reloads can enhance tactical play, but is easily over come with decent teamwork. But maybe that's the point?
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Old 10-14-2013, 07:51 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Limited ammo I think is the best 'one size fits all' rule for these kinds of games.

Cynically, I think this mag-fed only is the bastard child of milsim purists and companies that are trying to push their product onto a generation of players. Paintball is hurting somewhat and this is an untapped niche market.

I really want to get into the idea of mag-fed, but everytime I try a gun, even pistols, I can only think about how much extra stuff I have to carry.


Quote:
Originally Posted by T-T View Post
I prefer "limited ammo" to "mag fed"

Let that guy stick a 50 round hopper on an e-gun, but give everyone five hundred balls for the day. Or 200. Forcing constant reloads can enhance tactical play, but is easily over come with decent teamwork. But maybe that's the point?
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Old 10-15-2013, 03:02 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Hmmm interesting read.

In answer to the first question, "definition of Magfed", here is my opinion.

I think there are really two definitions for it. First being the description of a type of equipment. Mainly paintball guns/markers that are fed via a spring loaded magazine. Could the word magazines definition be broadened to include hoppers, stock class feeds, and stick feeds? I suppose so. But we don't. Because a hopper is a hopper, a stick feed is a stick feed, and a mag is a mag. That's what they are. Magazines are spring loaded. Would a spring feed be considered a magazine? To me, yes. Would a Q-loader be considered a magazine? I believe it would be(a very large and, in my experience, somewhat unreliable one).

The second definition more defines the play style, or format in which equipment is used. Like any paintball gun, magfed guns can be enjoyed on any field and many different games by many different people. "Mil simmers", rec players, "speedball" players, etc... It brings the idea of limited paint play to a larger audience and gives people like me another excuse to buy more guns! But when you refer to "magfed only" games that's a bit more than just a limited paint game or a pump only game. It's more about role playing. The magfed guns help enhance the roll playing experience through cosmetics, and their similarity to real guns. Vest, pouches, and assorted other soft gear adds even more the experience. To the purist, it really takes way from the milsim/roll playing/scenario feel when a bright pink ccm with a stick feed is out in a magfed only game. Same goes for tacced out Tippys with 300rd loaders on the side. On the flip side, if I went to a stock class only event and I saw a guy bust out his Milsig, or TPX or springfeed Sheridan, the argument would be valid as well because they do not fit under the stock class definition. The issue of what is allowed in "magfed only" games is with the event organizers. It really depends on the type of game that they are going for.

At the end of the day though, play the format that you like, with the gear you like. It's just a game to be played for fun after all
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Old 10-15-2013, 03:48 AM   #8 (permalink)
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I've been playing for a minute and it's like this; paintball in general is a small enough crowd that when a mag fed event doesn't allow anything that is not mag fed, like a stock class phantom for example, they are not helping the sport grow. I can see some reasoning behind it being mag fed only, but I liken it to a debate from a while ago when guys would show up with stick feeds on tricked out cocker pumps or a big debate was like the pt extreme being spring fed not counting as "stock class". My argument was the same then; If a player showed up with a stick feed on his marker, doesn't he deserve to play for conforming to the rules? I'd call him / her motivated. I could care less if his feed holds 3 more paintballs, or is springfed, we are all here, let's PLAY ffs. Some of the best games I have ever had were oddball pickup games.

I am all for a mag fed non blowback like the T15. Having a reliable mechanical feed device under the marker that isolates problems / breaks to 20 paintballs and let's me sight down the top? Shweet. I like a short barrel, no unneccessary rails, bell & whistles and absolutely tank in stock.

I have been shooting pumps, pistols and first strikes exclusively and am now branching a little into speedball with a new Etha I got in a trade from a shopowner. Mag fed, stock class, woods/scenarioball, even airball are all A-OK with me, as long as I get to play paintball I'm happy.
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Old 10-15-2013, 05:00 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Rover Lead View Post
a big debate was like the pt extreme being spring fed not counting as "stock class".
no, the PT extreme doesn't count as stock class because it's a semi auto.

For me, if someone wants a limited paint/mag/tube fed game then I'm all for it. If they want to play army, they're not the people I want to hang around anyway and maybe that's the way it should be classified. Don't have "magfed" games, have "pretend you're in the army" games and then you probably won't have to worry about all this debating. Paintball is a game that I like to play, grown men playing make believe is something I'm very happy to stay clear of. Stop all the legitamizing and just say "you can't shoot that gun or dress that way, we're having a make believe game today."
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Old 10-15-2013, 08:05 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by K_Obeastly View Post
Don't have "magfed" games, have "pretend you're in the army" games and then you probably won't have to worry about all this debating.
Not that I don't agree with you that there are some instances where people take it a little too seriously - but isn't that how paintball started in the first place? A group of people thought "Hey, we can recreate all our favourite war movies without getting killed, what a good idea!" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5ZoDNQv1Hs).

In relative terms, the dynamic shift away from that only really started occuring within the latter half of the last 20 years or so when the focus moved away from woodsball and more towards sup-air. Now we've got a new dynamic where people are wanting to emulate something they consider to be more realistic (or more like video games, take your pick).

Like I said before though, there's room for all of it without magfed players needing to be so exclusive about it.
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